William Barclay on "kolasis" and "timoria"

[Paidion]

The word for punishment is kolasis. The word was originally a gardening word, and its original meaning was pruning trees.

In Greek there are two words for punishment, timoria and kolasis, and there is a quite definite distinction between them. Aristotle defines the difference; kolasis is for the sake of the one who suffers it; timoria is for the sake of the one who inflicts it.

Plato says that no one punishes (kolazei) simply because he has done wrong - that would be to take unreasonable vengeance (timoreitai). We punish (kolazei) a wrong-doer in order that he may not do wrong again (Protagoras 323 E).

Clement of Alexandria (Stromateis 4.24; 7.16) defines kolasis as pure discipline, and timoria as the return of evil for evil.

Aulus Gellius says that kolasis is given that a man may be corrected; timoria is given that dignity and authority may be vindicated (The Attic Nights7.14).

The difference is quite clear in Greek and it is always observed. Timoria is retributive punishment. Kolasis is always given to amend and to cure.

However, Homer presented quotes which seem to indicate that "kolasis" was also used retributively. What do YOU think?

[Roberto]

The Bible uses the word timoria- is it not retributive?

[Paidion]

The Bible uses the word timoria- is it not retributive?

Yes. And sometime in a punitive sense.

The Bible also uses the word "kolasis". Is it not used in corrective sense? The problem is that some, such as Barclay, say that it is ALWAYS used in the corrective sense. Barclay wrote, "Kolasis is always given to amend and to cure." I thought so, too, until Homer found some non-Biblical literature in which "kolasis" also, seemed to have been used in a retributive sense.

[Roberto]

I think Vines points out something contra Barclay, I'll have to check it out...

[Roberto]

From Vines
"Note: The distinction, sometimes suggested, between No. 3 as being disciplinary, with special reference to the sufferer, and No. 5, as being penal, with reference to the satisfaction of him who inflicts it, cannot be maintained in the Koine Greek of NT times."
It seems rather lane that Vine doesn't give any evidence for this (I don't know of any, do you?)
Paidon, you've studied this for years, haven't you? Is it still a mystery?

Were there discoveries of evidence after Barclays death?
No (I looked it up)- Vine's was published in 1940.

[Paidion]

Well, I don't think the two words can simply be regarded as synonyms in NT times. I think there was a reason why the writers chose one rather than the other, and that their reason is reflected in the findings of Barclay. Perhaps the quotes which Homer brought forth were indicative of carelessness of the authors whom he quoted.

[Roberto]

Well, I don't think the two words can simply be regarded as synonyms in NT times. I think there was a reason why the writers chose one rather than the other, and that their reason is reflected in the findings of Barclay. Perhaps the quotes which Homer brought forth were indicative of carelessness of the authors whom he quoted.

There needs to be a greater data pool- what are the challenges to Barclay, for instance.. Be zealous and tireless in testing against all challenges! The goal should be to test Barclay against all conceivable challenges.

This link is a good start: http://moments.nbseminary.com/archives/ ... -john-418/

I'm gonna try to go with the evidence, but it hurts to go against universalism, so I maybe in for some suffering! I truly want it to be true, but I have to *know* that it is true.

[Roberto]

One of his arguments:
"'In Classical Greek usage the noun kolasis describes punishment that may be to the benefit of the one being punished.5 However, a few centuries later the sense that such punishment is temporary and corrective is no longer dominant. For example, Josephus speaks about Herod’s experience of being on trial and in danger of being sentenced to death, but through the intervention of Hyrcanus, the high priest, he was saved “from that danger and punishment (kolaseōs),”6 certainly not a reference to a temporary kind of punishment."

Any comments?
If "kolaseōs" means the same thing as kolasis, I think that he has a *defeater* for the assertion that kolasis always means disciplinary punishment, since capital punishment is not usually a disciplinary type of punishment. I suppose that it could be disciplinary if it went on after death and lead to a post mortem correction, but I don't see anything about that here. Of course this doesn't defeat the idea that it does mean "correction".

Defeater: defeater (plural defeaters)
(logic, philosophy) a belief which, if proved to be true, would imply outright or indirectly that another belief were false.

[Homer]

Roberto,

I had read the article you linked and noticed the following regarding the septuagint:

Within the Greek translation of the Hebrew canon, the noun kolasis only occurs in Jeremiah and Ezekiel and the cognate verb occurs once in Daniel 6:12(13). Jeremiah (18:20) complains to God about the plots being made against him. “Is evil a recompense for good that together they spoke utterances against my soul and hid their punishment (kolasin) for me?”7 In Ezekiel this noun represents the Hebrew noun mikshol, which means a stumbling block generated in most cases by idolatry and leading to punishment for such iniquity (14:3,4,7; 18:30; 44:12). In the Supplement to Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon the use of this noun in Greek Ezekiel is rendered as “that which brings about punishment, stumbling block.”8 In Ezekiel 14 and 18 the punishment that Yahweh brings upon Israel for its idolatry is death; in 44:12 Yahweh punishes the Levites for their participation in idolatry by never allowing them to act as priests in the new temple. It also occurs in Ezekiel 43:11 with the sense “receive their punishment” applied to Israel and describing Yahweh’s response to their sin. The prophet describes such punishment in 43:8 as “I wiped them out in my fury and by murder.” The emphasis seems to be upon a punishment that is fatal or results in permanent change, and administered by Yahweh, as divine agent, because of sinful action. The use of the verb in LXX Daniel 6:12a describes the punishment Daniel receives for praying to Yahweh, rather than to Darius, and his punishment is to be executed by confinement in a den of lions.

[Roberto]

Lets wait for Paidion, he maybe has something valuable to offer?