Judaizers

[dwilkins]

I've been looking for a while at the conflicts that shape the narrative of the story of the New Testament. Obviously, one of the key ones is the Judaizers and interactions with both the church leadership and members. I was wondering how we'd best define who the Judaizers were, what their goals were, and sources of information on them.

Doug

[Paidion]

It seems to me that there are still plenty of Judaizers. They are known by their practices. Most of them keep the Sabbath and some of the other injuctions of the Mosaic Law, keep the various Jewish feasts (Feast of Pentecost, Feast of Tabernacles, etc.), avoid eating pork, rabbit, or any other mammal which does not have a split hoof and chews the cud. And so on.

I am not writing against Judaizers—just trying to describe them.

[dwilkins]

I'd originally intended to talk about Judaizers of the 1st Century Temple, but you bring up an interesting point. If the term can be applied to contemporary adherents of Torah then what do we make of Paul saying that they are fallen from grace?

Doug

[backwoodsman]

If the term can be applied to contemporary adherents of Torah then what do we make of Paul saying that they are fallen from grace?

I think Paul is crystal clear in Galatians 5: Those who insist on depending on adherence to the law for salvation have renounced Christ and have no salvation through Him. The present-day Judaizers I know can get around this only by saying Paul was a false apostle who should be ignored.

[dwilkins]

If the term can be applied to contemporary adherents of Torah then what do we make of Paul saying that they are fallen from grace?

I think Paul is crystal clear in Galatians 5: Those who insist on depending on adherence to the law for salvation have renounced Christ and have no salvation through Him. The present-day Judaizers I know can get around this only by saying Paul was a false apostle who should be ignored.

Again, I was originally referring to Judaizers of the first century (those who were believers in Christ, but who insisted on non-Jews joining the nation through symbols such as circumcision in order to take advantage of him), but if you have modern groups in mind I'd be interested in hearing who you think they are.

Doug

[Paidion]

...but if you have modern groups in mind I'd be interested in hearing who you think they are.

I know you didn't ask me, but it seems to me that the following groups are Judaizers:

Some Messianic groups, some groups which arose from Herbert W. Armstrong's teachings, and (perhaps to a lesser extent) Seventh-Day Adventists and Seventh-Day Baptists. Among the hundreds of denominations, I am sure there are many others.

However, I don't think any of the groups which I specified, say that Paul was a false apostle.

[steve7150]

Some Messianic groups, some groups which arose from Herbert W. Armstrong's teachings, and (perhaps to a lesser extent) Seventh-Day Adventists and Seventh-Day Baptists. Among the hundreds of denominations, I am sure there are many others.





The Messianic jews i know don't believe celebrating the OT holidays have anything to do with salvation. These holidays are celebrated in a memorial sense and are always displayed as symbolic in some way of Christ. It's a way of elaborating on God's plan from the beginning, and are not in any way claiming to be celebrating the holidays in a biblical fashion. Also from what i know of the 7th say Adventists , they don't claim the Sabbath has anything to do with salvation.

So i wouldn't classify these groups as Judaizers.

[dwilkins]

While I've never heard of Messianic Jews claiming that you need to celebrate the feasts for salvation I have heard them say that true Christianity involves following Torah. When I've asked whether or not circumcision is necessary (circumcision being a mark of entry into the covenant under Torah) I've gotten a few deer in the headlight looks but no straight answers. I have heard some of them condemn the normal understanding of Paul's words in Galatians, so in a sense, though they may claim to embrace Paul, they don't embrace the Paul that Christianity has known. The issue for Paul was whether or not you needed to do works of the Law identifying yourself as part of the nation under Torah in order to be saved. The Messianic Jews I've talked to in person and online tend to come perilously close to saying yes to this, though they tend to mix some talk of faith into the conversation when they realize what they are doing.

Doug

[steve7150]

The Messianic Jews I've talked to in person and online tend to come perilously close to saying yes to this, though they tend to mix some talk of faith into the conversation when they realize what they are doing.









I don't doubt what you just said but i suspect if you ask 100 Christians what salvation means you would get quite an assortment of different answers. I do attend a Messianic Congregation and they often read from Paul's letters including Galatians. I am almost positive that no one at this congregation thinks circumcision is necessary for anything biblical.
As far as the Torah goes , they do emphasize it more then i wish they would but also i have never heard it used in the context of salvation. This congregation belongs to Tikkun an umbrella organization for many congregations so i don't think the beliefs are out of the norm for this group.

[dwilkins]

I don't doubt what you just said but i suspect if you ask 100 Christians what salvation means you would get quite an assortment of different answers. I do attend a Messianic Congregation and they often read from Paul's letters including Galatians. I am almost positive that no one at this congregation thinks circumcision is necessary for anything biblical.
As far as the Torah goes , they do emphasize it more then i wish they would but also i have never heard it used in the context of salvation. This congregation belongs to Tikkun an umbrella organization for many congregations so i don't think the beliefs are out of the norm for this group.

One of the reasons I mentioned that I'd originally intended the topic to talk about 1st Century matters is that I'm not sure it is technically possible to have Judaizers after that. Part of the definition is that they are trying to get people to come to Christ by joining Israel under the Mosaic Law, which includes the Temple and Levitical function. Once those were destroyed there was no more Mosaic Law nation. There are ways in which the Messianic Jews come close, but I'm not sure they fully qualify.

Doug