Jeremiah 13 v 14, Greg Boyd versus Steve Gregg and others

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Ian
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Jeremiah 13 v 14, Greg Boyd versus Steve Gregg and others

Post by Ian » Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:35 am

"And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together,” says the Lord.
“I will not pity nor spare nor have mercy, but will destroy them."
Greg Boyd is now adamant* that this type of threat is merely God`s shadow activity.
He`s speaking to the Israelites in a way that they understand, barbaric that they may have been.
He`s talking on their violent level, contrary to His non-violent Nature.
He presents his case here for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_nIyrkjlhU

Steve and others have always taught the Old Testament traditionally, taking it at face value
as revealing God`s character. So he and they would try to embrace the God portrayed in this passage
and try to "smush these violent traits together" as Boyd describes it, with the God who pleads forgiveness
for Hs enemies while taking His last breath.

Greg Boyd seems to be hanging his whole theology about this on Colossians 2 v 17:
"which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ".
All this hugely impacts our image of God and how we read the Old Testament.

Has Greg Boyd, affable though he is, become a false teacher? I`d like to think not.
But I know there are some here who think otherwise. I`d be especially keen to hear Steve`s response.

* edit - that`s not quite correct - he invites people to mail him with alternate ideas.

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Ian
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Re: Jeremiah 13 v 14, Greg Boyd versus Steve Gregg and others

Post by Ian » Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:06 am

Steve, in yesterday`s programme I heard you use the words "total non-animosity towards them" in describing Jesus` words on the cross "Father, forgive them..."

But there appears to be great animosity in the words ascribed to God in passages like the above. Would you recognize a conflict here? Do you at least empathize with the direction Greg Boyd has taken?

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Re: Jeremiah 13 v 14, Greg Boyd versus Steve Gregg and others

Post by dwilkins » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:39 am

Ian wrote: Has Greg Boyd, affable though he is, become a false teacher?
Before getting into the main point you are making, I think it's a bad idea to label someone a "false teacher" because they teach something that's wrong. There are libraries full of Biblical commentaries and tens of thousands of Bible teachers running around and none of them agree on every single thing. You'd have to prove that someone was wrong about a substantial amount of doctrine in such a way that he is leading people away from God to legitimately say that he is a "false teacher". I don't think this fits Boyd, who goes to great length to study questions about God that most people turn a blind eye to (intentionally and unintentionally).

I don't think he's right about Colossians 2, though.

"Colossians 2

English Standard Version (ESV)

2 For I want you to know how great a struggle I have for you and for those at Laodicea and for all who have not seen me face to face, 2 that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, to reach all the riches of full assurance of understanding and the knowledge of God's mystery, which is Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 I say this in order that no one may delude you with plausible arguments. 5 For though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the firmness of your faith in Christ.
Alive in Christ

6 Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.

8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits[a] of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.[c]
Let No One Disqualify You

16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions,[d] puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God."

It is clear to me that in this section Paul is talking about Christ being the fulfillment of the Mosaic Law. The elements of the Law (things that were soon to be burned up such as washings, observances such as feasts and sacrifices, etc.) were designed to teach the nation in shadows and types about the person, Christ, who was going to fulfill it. He would bring the actual forgiveness and salvation that the Law only hinted at. Paul is contrasting the reality of Christ vs. Mosaic Law observance for justification. Paul wasn't teaching that God himself, as displayed in the Old Testament, was only some sort of hint of his real self. I think in this case that Boyd has proof texted the phrase from v.17 as a sort of metaphysical statement about the nature of God instead of understanding v.17 to be a part of the rest of the passage which is a comparison of Christ to the Law.

Boyd's major problem what I've read and heard from him is that he fails to see that God has a full spectrum personality. It probably comes from combining the essence of God with the attributes of God, which has been a problem in theology for 1,500 years (the EO and RCC churches have written quite a bit about their disagreements on this). As much as Boyd is striving to understand the Old Testament version of God I think he needs to take a look at what Jesus claims he will do, which is to rule with a rod of iron, smashing nations like pots of clay. This isn't an old vs. new issue. It's a good guys vs. bad guys issue. God goes out of his way (the cross) to rescue the bad guys, but at some point he says that he will destroy them. BTW, at about the 9:00 mark in the video he starts to go into some detail about why his book is delayed. I think in the end it's because his base theology of defining God as love, with no other attributes of parallel rank, is miscalculated.

Doug

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Ian
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Re: Jeremiah 13 v 14, Greg Boyd versus Steve Gregg and others

Post by Ian » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:56 am

Before getting into the main point you are making, I think it's a bad idea to label someone a "false teacher" because they teach something that's wrong. There are libraries full of Biblical commentaries and tens of thousands of Bible teachers running around and none of them agree on every single thing. You'd have to prove that someone was wrong about a substantial amount of doctrine in such a way that he is leading people away from God to legitimately say that he is a "false teacher". I don't think this fits Boyd, who goes to great length to study questions about God that most people turn a blind eye to (intentionally and unintentionally).
Dwilkins, thanks for your post. I`ve not time to read it all just now. But wanted to respond to your first paragraph. I`m not labelling Greg Boyd as a false teacher. I love him to death anyway (Steve too). But I wanted to know whether others have begun to see him in that light. His is a radical departure from mainstream thought. Either way I shall look forward to reading the rest of your post tomorrow.

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Re: Jeremiah 13 v 14, Greg Boyd versus Steve Gregg and others

Post by steve » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:48 pm

I think the problem many have in seeing God as He is depicted in judgment passages of scripture is in our ascribing too much importance to earthly longevity. "Why would God kill so-and-so [that is, cut their lives on earth short], if He is a loving God?" is the question we hear so often. We could as easily ask, "Why would Jesus, if He loves His disciples, encourage them to lay down their lives [cut their earthly lives short] to die as martyrs?" For that matter, why does God let babies die of disease, which is in His power to heal? In all such cases, God is either causing, encouraging, or refusing to prevent premature death. Is this loving?

In the case of martyrs, we immediately know the answer: There is a reward in the next life for Christians (Matt.16:24-26/ Rev.2:10), so the duration of their earthy pilgrimage, whether long or short, matters little in the light of eternity. This is an entirely satisfying answer, it seems to me. So why can't we apply the same principle more universally—namely, that all people face an eternity of such significance that the length of their earthly lives, by comparison, is of little consequence?

This life is short (though not equally so) for all humans, and eternity is long (and equally so) for all. If a baby and a 100-year-old man die together in an accident, and both find themselves in heaven, the respective lengths of their earthly lives will not be a matter of concern to them. The difference of a hundred years, from an eternal perspective, is imperceptibly small.

Likewise, if one sinner dies and goes to hell after living 25 years, and another experiences the same fate after a life of 100 years, this disparity will mean nothing at all to them in their ultimate circumstances. It is the nature of these ultimate circumstances that provides the milieu for our assessment of the value of such things as earthly longevity, comfort, prosperity, happiness, etc. In scripture, godly people are often urged to sacrifice the latter for the former. Why should it be otherwise for sinners?

Since all have sinned, all die. It is appointed to all. It is God's to decide when, and under what circumstances, each person will fulfill his appointment. In many wars, natural disasters and national judgments, righteous and relatively righteous folks have perished alongside the wicked. This is sad to the survivors, but it hardly makes any difference to the victims. For the righteous, any day is a good day to meet God. To the wicked, one day is as bad as any other to be the last.

God has an eternal plan. It is a good plan. In the resurrection, we will all be happy with what God has in store—even for the lost (which is one reason to doubt the traditional view of hell). Between here and there lies the dark valley of death, which all must traverse. Every sinner killed by God in Sodom and Gomorrah, or any other Old Testament judgment, if they had been spared that fate, would nonetheless have long since perished in some other manner. To die by the sword in the year 1400 BC is a gory end for the sinner. Dying in 2013 of prostate cancer may be much worse. Many a saint, while trusting God, has died more painfully than did Agag or Sisera—but never in circumstances that God could not have remedied. In their cases, despite their prayers, the loving God withheld His hand.

Passing through death may be a more or less painful ordeal, but it is a universal and finite one. Only those who do not calibrate their judgments with reference to eternity are likely to stumble over God striking Ananias and Saphira or Herod dead (in the New Testament) or the Canaanites, Nadab and Abihu and Uzza in the Old. A thousand (or a billion) years from now, it will not be the matter of when, or by what means, any given person has died that will matter. It will be whether they died prepared or unprepared to meet God.

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Re: Jeremiah 13 v 14, Greg Boyd versus Steve Gregg and others

Post by Singalphile » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:33 pm

Ian wrote:
I`m not labelling Greg Boyd as a false teacher. I love him to death anyway (Steve too). But I wanted to know whether others have begun to see him in that light. His is a radical departure from mainstream thought. Either way I shall look forward to reading the rest of your post tomorrow.
I don't think one has to depart very radically from mainstream thought to be called a "false teacher" (and some in the side streams would give that label to everyone in the mainstream). I would reserve the label "false teacher" primarily for those who affirm or encourage sin.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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Re: Jeremiah 13 v 14, Greg Boyd versus Steve Gregg and others

Post by Paidion » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:08 pm

I don't think it's just a matter of how little importance physical death is when we compare it with eternity.

As I see it, it's a matter of the character of God. Some of us believe God kills people. If that is the case, then why didn't Jesus ever kill anyone? He is God in some sense isn't He, or at least bears the exact stamp of Father's essence, doesn't He? If He is another One exactly like the Father, and the Father kills people, why doesn't Jesus kill people? There's no scriptural record of His having killed anyone, or even attacked anyone physically in any way.

I think Jesus revealed the Father as He really is—one who acts in no way differently from His divine Son. Our conclusion should be that if Jesus was non-violent, then so is the Father.
Paidion

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Re: Jeremiah 13 v 14, Greg Boyd versus Steve Gregg and others

Post by dwilkins » Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:03 pm

Paidion wrote:I don't think it's just a matter of how little importance physical death is when we compare it with eternity.

As I see it, it's a matter of the character of God. Some of us believe God kills people. If that is the case, then why didn't Jesus ever kill anyone? He is God in some sense isn't He, or at least bears the exact stamp of Father's essence, doesn't He? If He is another One exactly like the Father, and the Father kills people, why doesn't Jesus kill people? There's no scriptural record of His having killed anyone, or even attacked anyone physically in any way.

I think Jesus revealed the Father as He really is—one who acts in no way differently from His divine Son. Our conclusion should be that if Jesus was non-violent, then so is the Father.
Which is to say, at some point he smashes the nations with a rod of iron (smashing the nations as if they were clay pots), right?

Revelation 19:11-16 (ESV)
11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war.
12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself.
13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.
14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.
15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.
16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

Doug

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Re: Jeremiah 13 v 14, Greg Boyd versus Steve Gregg and others

Post by steve7150 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:23 am

I think Jesus revealed the Father as He really is—one who acts in no way differently from His divine Son. Our conclusion should be that if Jesus was non-violent, then so is the Father.










I read a book awhile ago called "Don't blame God" which claimed the apparently vicious sounding verses in the OT were really speaking about Satan but because the folks back then knew virtually nothing about Satan that the biblical writers attributed everything to God whether good or bad. Of course God made Satan and could destroy Satan but i think God clearly believes it's worthwhile for man to allow evil to play out.

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Re: Jeremiah 13 v 14, Greg Boyd versus Steve Gregg and others

Post by Paidion » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:36 pm

From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. (Revelation 19:15)
Most of the book of Revelation describes the vision which was given to John the writer. Much of it is figurative, and perhaps even allegorical. "The winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty" is clearly figurative. God will not express his fury via a literal winepress. The "rod of iron" with which Christ will rule the nations is figurative. It symbolizes His absolute and complete rule. The "sharp sword" which proceeds from Christ's mouth is symbolic of the words which will come out of His mouth. With these words He will "strike down the nations." Does this mean that He will utterly demolish them, killing all the people in them? Hardly, for then there would be no nations over which to rule. "Striking down" the nations may refer to convincing and convicting them with His words so that they will change their ways.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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