What is the law in New Covenant?

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Re: What is the law in New Covenant?

Post by jriccitelli » Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:40 am

My point should have been that Jesus sermon on the mount and all his other words were not so much addition to 'scripture' (Torah) but He opened up and expounded the scriptures to them. He also 'fullfilled' the words of Moses, David, Isaiah etc. Jesus taught the Law, not adding to it, but going deeper to the heart and root of sin, with the purpose as Paul says to show us our inner sinful nature, that sin "proved to result in death for me" and "that every mouth may be closed" (Romans 7:10, 3:19). So Jesus taught us to look at scripture, and now we see it in light of His atonement and it fullfilled. "Do we then nullify the Law through faith? may it never be! on the contrary we establish the Law. (Rom.3:31) That though you were slaves to sin you became obiedient to that form of teaching to which you were commited. (Rom.6"17) So then, the Law is Holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. (Rom. 3:13).
This is a big deal for me since i run across too many 'believers' who say 'oh well that is the Old testament, that doesnt apply to us' (unless they find a verse that promises them prosperity) Sure the old testament applys for us, israel and the participants of the scriptures lived as examples to all of us, how God works, acts and feels about us and sin. How we need a savior, and how quickly we forget and fall back into sin. The message of the old test. is "Man sins, we call out for help, God saves us, and man sins again, God saves, man sins, God forgives, we sin. The Law and the old test. point this out and by knowing this we should be wiser, so to not let our nature and complacency become like Israel, who soon found God had become tired of thier sacrifices and rebellion, instead think of his kindness in respect to our deserving judgment, and dont use our freedom to sin. So the law of Christ is this, God loves us in Christ, since Christ died for you, thus you love him and keep his commandments, which are not burdensome. ...anyways live by faith, in grace, just my thoughts.

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Re: What is the law in New Covenant?

Post by verbatim » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:39 pm

John quote;
"Jesus taught the Law, not adding to it, but going deeper to the heart and root of sin,"
"So Jesus taught us to look at scripture, and now we see it in light of His atonement and it fullfilled."

Virgilio quote:
So let us look if what is Jesus teaches which were not written in Old Testament. John 6:48- 58 wherein he said that he was the bread of life that comes down from heaven. He teaches that his flesh is the living bread that will be broken and must be eaten by believers to enable as to have eternal life and he shall raise up on the last day.

Let's look forward to 1 Corinthians 11:23-26 This is a testimony of Paul; " For I have received of the Lord that which I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
v.24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
v. 25 After the same manner also he took the up, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
This rebut your words that Jesus did not add to the law as prescribed in OT, what he added is the new law that establish the new covenant by the atoning word of his blood for the remission of man's sin. 2 Corinthians 5:18-19, Hebrews 12:24 Shall we consider the words or teaching of Jesus as worthless?

John quote:
"Do we then nullify the Law through faith? may it never be! on the contrary we establish the Law. (Rom.3:31) That though you were slaves to sin you became obiedient to that form of teaching to which you were commited. (Rom.6"17) So then, the Law is Holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

virgilio quote:
I agree, that the Law is Holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. But no man is justified by the law in he sight of God, it is evident: for the
The just shall live by faith. Gal 3:11 reason why Jesus pray to Father, Sanctify them through the truth: the word is truth.

my two cents
Thank you and God Bless
your brother in Christ,
virgilio
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Re: What is the law in New Covenant?

Post by jriccitelli » Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:00 pm

Good morning Verb. I think we agree, but as I said "when I mention keeping the Law many christians think I am saying we 'HAVE TO' obey the Law'. I allready said; The Law does ''''''''''''NOT JUSTIFY us, """""I teach, and debate, we are saved by grace!""""""But my complaint is this; As the prophets, Jesus, Paul, Peter continued to emphasis over and over: God saves us for a purpose, God saves us to produce good fruit, God saves us in hope, that we would respond to his grace by doing good works.
I did not say Jesus did not say anything new or different, Someone posted the answer to what is the 'New covenant', as some of the sayings from the Sermon on the mount, and that it was the Law of Love. Although these are 'parts' of the 'law of Christ' which is never clearly defined, the commandment of Christ as in 1 John 3 is to love and believe Him. And no one can argue that love is the principle in keeping the Law, yet it is not a alternative to the other laws but the root of them. (the moral laws, not ceremonial) (we dont keep the sabbath but we obey the principle, we marry foriegn women but we do not embrace other gods, etc) Believing is not a simplistic term either , but the root of trust, faith, and encompasses much of what is contained in scripture; 'if you believed Moses you would believe me" (Jesus). The new covenant' clearly has many references, most refer back to the OT. I will state as I understand that most simply put the new covenant is 'Jesus'. This includes Jesus blood as the sign, securing, establishment and fullfilling of the Sinaitic covenant (Moses). Moreover His blood joins the two covenants, Sinaitic and Abrahamic together and fullfills both. The New Covenant refered to in Isaiah and Ezekiel are also fullfilled by Christ who is 'the Word' living in us, in other words the Scriptures living in us, the Law written on our hearts.
The Law of God, of Christ, the Word, the Holy Spirit is written, and living in us. We, who by grace have believed and been saved.
Now then He did not die and raise and come into our hearts just to have tea. He put the law in our heart for a purpose.
"Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great shepherd of the eternal covenant, Jesus our Lord, equip you in every good thing to do his will." (Hebrews 13:20) Therefore since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. (2 Peter 4:1) We are not trying to keep our salvation by works, we are doing His will by choice, out of gratitude, this is how you know; the one who keeps his commandments abides in Him, and He in him.

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Re: What is the law in New Covenant?

Post by verbatim » Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:03 pm

Hello brother John,greetings;
Thank you for clarifying your position and I agree with what you had explain. I can mirror on your words that you are really enlightened by the principles of true Christian. Continue the path that our Lord has prepared for you, walk in spirit, in light ans in love of our Lord Jesus.

While we may vary in some understanding of the words of God, we must be thankful what so ever God has gave us. Here is my concerned for you which I request you to study more. I copy this on your last quote;

"I will state as I understand that most simply put the new covenant is 'Jesus'. This includes Jesus blood as the sign, securing, establishment and fullfilling of the Sinaitic covenant (Moses). Moreover His blood joins the two covenants."

Yes, Jesus is the fulfillment of the "promise seed" that God had promised to Abraham, more especially to his blood which secured and establish the new covenant. But sincerely, I'm telling you the truth that few Christian has been able to acknowledge or understand the mystery of the atonement of Jesus blood, if how could a literal blood could cleansed us from our sins. It was written in 2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of truth. Truth shall set you free. And Jesus prayed to Father for us to be; Sanctify them through the truth, the word is truth. That is the point of view in my OP.

Thank you for changing idea with me and I pray that God guided you on all paths you undertake.

Thank you and God bless.
your brother in Christ,
virgilio
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Re: What is the law in New Covenant?

Post by jriccitelli » Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:51 am

Virgilio, It may be that I cringe when I hear catholic ministers use the word 'mystery', since the 'mysteries' have been revealed in Jesus. You said; "I'm telling you the truth that few Christian has been able to acknowledge or understand the mystery of the atonement of Jesus blood, if how could a literal blood could cleansed us from our sins." I dont know how many christians 'understand' this, but if, and since Jesus is God, then it is a matter of simple proportion and magnitude; That something far greater than mankind, something far greater than the universe, something pure as God, would die for us can only be breathtaking. It is a matter of 'who's' blood it was, not the biological compound of the blood. It should not be that a Holy Creator would suffer on a cross for a unholy creation, but He did, that 'truth' has pierced millions of souls. Peter 1:19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ
Bible doctrine may be difficult to grasp sometimes but they are not mysteries; Deuteronomy 29:29 "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever,.. Mark 4:11 And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables,.. Ephesians 1:9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him...Anyways, u may not have meant it thus so, but it was good for me to have a few verses to look up.

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Re: What is the law in New Covenant?

Post by verbatim » Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:49 pm

[quote="jriccitelli"]
Virgilio, It may be that I cringe when I hear catholic ministers use the word 'mystery', since the 'mysteries' have been revealed in Jesus. You said; "I'm telling you the truth that few Christian has been able to acknowledge or understand the mystery of the atonement of Jesus blood,

virgilio quote:
I'm sorry to tell this but that is true many are called but few are chosen.

John quote:
if how could a literal blood could cleansed us from our sins." I dont know how many christians 'understand' this, but if, and since Jesus is God, then it is a matter of simple proportion and magnitude; That something far greater than mankind, something far greater than the universe, something pure as God, would die for us can only be breathtaking. It is a matter of 'who's' blood it was, not the biological compound of the blood. It should not be that a Holy Creator would suffer on a cross for a unholy creation, but He did, that 'truth' has pierced millions of souls.

virgilio quote:
I agree, how great God's love for us that he gave his beloved Son to be a sacrificed and died to redeem the man from being bondage from the power of the darkness. But I would like to clarify the words of Jesus; John 6:63 It is the Spirit that quickeneth , the flesh profiteth nothing; the word that I speak unto you
they are spirit, and they are life. I'll give you a testimony of Paul in regards if how he know Jesus. 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell, or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such a one caught up to the third heaven. v.3 And I knew such man, ( whether in the body or out of he body, I cannot tell: God knoweth. v.4 How he was caught up into the paradise, and uspeakable words, which
is not lawful for a man t utter.

2 Corinthians 5: 14-17 For the love of Christ constraint us; because we thus judge, if one died for all, then we are all dead. v.15 And he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for all. v.16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh; yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

John quote:
Peter 1:19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ

virgilio quote:
I agree that Jesus precious blood were unblemished and spotless in spiritual essence and not literal as Jesus himself
wit that in flesh or literal we profit nothing and the spiritual blood is the word that his blood speak better things than the blood of Abel Hebrews 12:24 which is the word that established the new Covenant and the word of reconciliation
of man to God 2 Corinthians 5:18-19

John quote:
Bible doctrine may be difficult to grasp sometimes but they are not mysteries;

virgilio quote:
For me Bible was not a mystery but the doctrine written thereof, he mystery is hidden.

john quote:
Deuteronomy 29:29 "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our
sons forever,..

virgilio quote:
Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but hr revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

John quote:
Mark 4:11 And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables,.. Ephesians 1:9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him...

virgilio quote:
The parables must be understand by a believer because without knowing it one cannot able the know the mystery of kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 2:4- 14 And my speech and preaching is not with enticing words of man,s wisdom, but in demonstration of the spirit and of power...But we speak wisdom of God, in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none princes of this world knew; for had they known it, they would not crucified the Lord of glory.... (please continue reading up to verse 14)

John quote:
Anyways, u may not have meant it thus so, but it was good for me to have a few verses to look up.

virgilio quote;
Yes I mean it and that is the point of view of my OP to know the new commandments that were needed to be written
in our mind and hearts which we will be see the glory of the begotten Son of the Father full of grace and truth.
John 1:14 & 1John 1:1

Thank you and God bless.
your brother in Christ.
virgilio
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Re: What is the law in New Covenant?

Post by jriccitelli » Fri Sep 02, 2011 11:02 am

You wrote "my OP to know the new commandments that were needed to be written in our mind and hearts" I am not sure if this is a question, or your desire. You then quote 2 scriptures which are the answers to both (John 1:14 & 1John 1:1). The Law of Christ is that which you hold in your hand, fullfilled in Christ. Jesus is Gods Word fullfilled, 'Gods Word', 'the Word of Life' (1 John 1:1) or as we may call it the 'Bible', the Scriptures, the old 'and' new testaments.
My opinion is that the new covenant fillment of Jeremiah 31:31; "I will put my Law within them and on their heart I will write it " is the Word indwelling our heart. "The Word was made flesh", as the 'Word' was made flesh, so 'He' is made flesh in us as we conform to His 'image'. (expl. The Word is made flesh when we practice and live out his word in our life) "Beloved I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard" (1 John 2:7) And as for you, the anointing which you recieved from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach; but as His anointing teaches you about all things...everyone who practices righteousness is born of him. (1 John 2:27-29)
The way to recieve the law on our hearts is to repent and believe the gospel, which is to believe the message of Jer.31:34, "I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin i will remember no more" So without Christs atonement and shed 'blood of the new covenant' there would be no way to fullfill, or recieve, the law of Christ in our hearts. (As a personal opinion; I think Gods word goes from the heart to the mind through the study, searching, and doing of Gods word, therefore becoming the His words made flesh through our good behavior, charity and faithfullness)
Last edited by jriccitelli on Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What is the law in New Covenant?

Post by verbatim » Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:32 pm

Hello John greetings
I’ll not answer according to your last reply instead I will give my spiritual insight about the bread (body) and wine (blood) which supervene as a sacrifice for atonement of our sins. As a guideline Jesus said John 6:63 It is the Spirit that quickenath; the flesh profiteh nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life.
Mathew 27:51 And behold, the veil of the temple was rent into twain from top to the bottom, and the earth did quake and the rocks rent
2 Corinthians 3:14-16 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ, v.15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read the veil is upon their heart.
Hebrews 10:19-20 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus. v.20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say his flesh.
By a new and living way - It is called a "living way," because it is a method that imparts life, or because it leads to life and happiness. renders it "ever-living way," and supposes, in accordance with the opinion that the allusion is to the fact that under the old dispensation the blood was to be offered as soon as it was shed, and that it could not be offered when it was cold and coagulated. The way by Christ was, however, always open. His blood was, as it were, always warm, and as if it had been recently shed. This interpretation seems to derive some support from the word which is rendered "new." See above. The word "living," also, has often the sense of perennial, or perpetual, as when applied to a fountain always running, in opposition to a pool that dries up and the new way to heaven may be called living - in all these respects. It is away that conducts to life. It is ever-living as if the blood which was shed always retained the freshness of what is flowing from the vein. And it is "perpetual" and "constant" like a fountain that always flows - for it is by a sacrifice whose power is perpetual and unchanging. ( see verse John 7:38-39 & John 4:10)

Which he consecrated for us - "prepared or new made." The word here used means properly to renew, and then to initiate, to consecrate, to sanction. The idea is, that he has dedicated this way for our use; as if a temple or house were set apart for our service. It is a part consecrated by him for the service and salvation of man; a way of access to the eternal sanctuary for the sinner which has been set apart by the Redeemer for this service alone.

Through the veil, that is to say, his flesh - The plain meaning of the expression is, that the way to heaven was opened by means, or through the medium of the flesh of Jesus; that is, of his body sacrificed for sin, as the most holy place in the temple was entered by means or through the medium of the veil. We are not to suppose, however, that the apostle meant to say that there was in all respects a resemblance between the veil and the flesh of Jesus, nor that the veil was in any manner typical of his body, but there was a resemblance in the respect under consideration - to wit, in the fact that the holy place was rendered accessible by withdrawing the veil, and that heaven was rendered accessible through the slain body of Jesus. The idea is, that there is by means both of the veil of the temple, and of the body of Jesus, a medium of access to God. God dwelt in the most holy place in the temple behind the veil by visible symbols, and was to be approached by removing the veil; and God dwells in heaven, in the most holy place there, and is to be approached only through the offering of the body of Christ. that the veil of the temple operated as a screen to hide the visible symbol of the presence of God from human view, and that in like manner the body of Jesus man be regarded as a "kind of temporary tabernacle, or veil of the divine nature which dwelt within us." and that "as the veil of the tabernacle concealed the glory of God in the holy of holies, from the view of people, so Christ's flesh or body screened or concealed the higher nature from our view, which dwelt within this veil, as God did of old within the veil of the temple."

. . It is by the offering of the body of Jesus; by the fact that he was clothed with flesh, and that in his body he made an atonement for sin, and that with his body raise. Hope this help.

Thank you and God bless.
your brother in Christ.
virgilio
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Re: What is the law in New Covenant?

Post by jriccitelli » Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:21 am

Verb, Since you posted this 'topic', answers ought to be made and discussed. I am a bit bewildered over the reference to the statement "His blood was, as it were, always warm, and as if it had been recently shed". You equate living way with blood as if the blood is living (?) Without research I have never heard of such a thing, yet this sounds like an extremely Catholic interpretation. The phrase 'by a new and living way' from my commentaries (i now looked it up) never seem to suggest 'living blood' it is a reference to a new 'way', a living 'way', that is, not through human priests and animal blood. There is no support for an 'ongoing' sacrifice. The power of the blood derives from 'whos' blood it was, 'once for all' (Heb.9:12) 'how much more will the blood of Christ' (Heb.9:14) 'having been offered once' (Heb.9:28)
Your proof verses "John 7:38-39 & John 4:10", refer to the living waters that certainly is the 'Holy Spirit', not blood. "...From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive" (John 7:38-39) If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, Give Me a drink, you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." Anyways the gift of God is the Spirit, and water usually refers to the life giving Spirit.
Jesus' blood establishes His new covenant, the gift and fullfillment is His Spirit with us, doing Gods will in us, as we follow Him and abide in his Spirit, we know we are, if we love one another and obey His commands.(1John)

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Re: What is the law in New Covenant?

Post by verbatim » Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:11 pm

jriccitelli wrote:Verb, Since you posted this 'topic', answers ought to be made and discussed. I am a bit bewildered over the reference to the statement "His blood was, as it were, always warm, and as if it had been recently shed".
" Hyperbole" Matthew 13:11-13 He answered and said to them, Because it is given unto you the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. v.12 For whosoever hath, he shall have more abundance but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. v.13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither they do understand.
John 6:63 It is the Spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak uno you they are spirit, and they are life.

[ quote] You equate living way with blood as if the blood is living (?) Without research I have never heard of such a thing, yet this sounds like an extremely Catholic interpretation.[/quote]

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given unto you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh atonement for the soul. No, it is not a mere Catholic interpretation but a spiritual biblical context.
The phrase 'by a new and living way' from my commentaries (i now looked it up) never seem to suggest 'living blood' it is a reference to a new 'way', a living 'way', that is, not through human priests and animal blood. There is no support for an 'ongoing' sacrifice. The power of the blood derives from 'whos' blood it was, 'once for all' (Heb.9:12) 'how much more will the blood of Christ' (Heb.9:14) 'having been offered once' (Heb.9:28)
Forget human priest and animal blood as our subject of our discussion for they are literal; the new and living way is the spiritual body and blood of Jesus which he used bread and wine as a substitution and he commanded his disciples and unto us to do in remembrance of him, so it is the new commandment in the new covenant. Not blood of bulls and goats offering which does not please God. But a new spiritual body of a "new creation man" which is generated through the enlightment grace from the Holy Ghost that Jesus Christ promised to send to us. (John 14:17, 26)

[John quote ]
Your proof verses "John 7:38-39 & John 4:10", refer to the living waters that certainly is the 'Holy Spirit', not blood. "...From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive" (John 7:38-39) If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, Give Me a drink, you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." Anyways the gift of God is the Spirit, and water usually refers to the life giving Spirit.[/quote]

Blood, water, and wind are synonymously used in spiritual pa rables, the sound of flow of rivers of living water is even used as the voice of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:15 and the sound of the wind when it blows as Jesus infer to a man being born again. (John 3:8)
Jesus' blood establishes His new covenant, the gift and fullfillment is His Spirit with us, doing Gods will in us, as we follow Him and abide in his Spirit, we know we are, if we love one another and obey His commands.(1John)
Yes, new covenant is establish through the blood of Jesus which speak better things than the blood of Abel and of the animal's blood. ( Heb 12:24)

Grace and Peace be with you.
your brother in Christ.
virgilio
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