soul and spirit.

[glow]

I was wondering what you believe as far as: Are the soul and spirit the same?

Why or why not and how is that backed up?

Thank you.

[charleswest]

I was wondering what you believe as far as: Are the soul and spirit the same?

Why or why not and how is that backed up?

Thank you.

Gen 2:7 KJV And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

dust(body) + breath(spirit)= living soul

I have thought about this a long time and for now believe that the soul is the product of the relationship the spirit has with God and the surrounding environment.

[steve]

This is no doubt true of human souls. However, in the Old Testament, the word translated "soul" (nephesh) is used also of animals (usually translated "creature"). I am not sure whether the breath of life that it in the animals would as readily be identified with our concept of the "spirit."

When we come to the New Testament word for "soul" (psuche) we have a very different set of referents from Greek usage that muddies the water considerably. Some say that the soul, in the New Testament Greek reflects Greek ideas of human divisibility from those brought out in the Old Testament.

Up to the present, I have found the question raised by glow (above) to be very challenging, and I am not able to give an answer that I could regard as authoritative.

[Perry]

I hope I'm not hijacking the thread here.

I've often wondered about the relationship between the physical brain chemistry of a person, and their non-corporeal spiritual state. It seems fairly plain to me that altered brain chemistry can open one up to spiritual influences (sometimes very dark ones). Indeed, I've seen this first hand.

In contrast, I can also say that, when I'm feeling down and "have the blues" often going out for a quick walk can do a lot to "lift my spirits".

[TK]

Watchman Nee wrote "The Spiritual Man" that addresses this. It can be read online here:

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm? ... %3DC%3D%0A

TK

[RickC]

dust(body) + breath(spirit)= living soul

I like that way of putting it (as a 'summary' way of saying it).

We've discussed this topic on the forum before and, at one time, I had all of the threads in bookmark/files. Then a computer crash <sigh>
====================

Three Views of Anthroplogy ("the doctrine of man") w/r/t Body, Soul, and Spirit

1) Trichotomist - People are 'made up' of three separate 'parts' that have specific functions. Watchman Nee's view, and others. This view has been criticized as having roots in Platonic philosophy, (the ideas of Plato), and not being representative of a Jewish (or 'biblical') worldview.
2) Dichotomist - People have 'two parts'. Soul and spirit are more or less interchangable, or they describe different, yet very similar things.
3) Holistic - People consist of a 'unity' and do not 'have' a soul or a spirit. They are souls and/or spirits, 'in' a body.

Like Steve says, this is a pretty complicated topic!

I read Nee's book 'The Spiritual Man' a long time ago. While is has some great 'spiritual insights', I find the Trichotomist view least likely (and largely based in Platonic thought).

My view is Holistic. I 'lean toward it' based on my understanding of a 'Jewish worldview'. In other words, I come to it from more of a biblical, rather than a philosophical approach. 'Problems' remain, however, because Jews in the NT Era were influenced by Hellenistic (Greek) philosophy, or, at least, used its philosophical terms.

This makes things a bit harder to 'pin down' because we have to determine: Are 'Greek terms' being used 'to convey ideas in a contemporary way' (in the NT Era)? Which leads to the next question: Or does the use of 'Greek terms' mean the biblical authors accepted a Greek worldview? I think they went the 'in a contemporary way' route w/r/t Body, Soul, and Spirit.
=============================

This topic also comes up in discussions about Hell. 'I lean (pretty strongly) toward' Conditional Immortality (also called 'Annihilationism' or just 'Conditionalism'). There are still 'problems' with this view too. I'm not sure, but would tend to think that most 'Conditionalists' hold to a Holistic Anthropology. I know (the fairly 'famous') Glenn Peoples does.

Thanks!

[RickC]

P.S. I 'saw' Michelle and some 'guests' come in here while I was editing. So, um, I made some changes, sorry about that, LOL

I used to be in the habit of composing posts in MS Word first (but use Open Office now<---FREE! and lots better @ user-friendly). This forum's edit feature is really cool though, imo! Thanks!

[charleswest]

Gen 2:7 KJV And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

I lean toward the view that the soul (personality) is the "work" product of the relationship that the spirit has with it's surroundings.
What I find more interesting is the use of the word "became" in this context.

Does this indicate a time process of growth or maturity?
Does a newborn "become" a living soul, while at the same time "being" a living soul?
Further, at what point is/does the spirit of a newborn appear, and how?

And another point. Humans are INCARNATE spirits in a human body, or "tent" as Paul puts it.

More recently I read a verse (somewhere) that indicates the "heart" is somehow a unique (yet integral) part of the spirit. I'll try to find the verse again.

[RickC]

Charles (briefly) -

I don't believe in the "pre-existence of souls" (that we existed 'in heaven' (or wherever?) before birth).

I also wouldn't identify the "soul" as "personality" (like Trichotomists do).

And when we add more things like: 'heart' and 'mind' (to body, soul, and spirit), it can get incredibly complicated.

My view is that "soul" almost always simply means "an alive/living person" in the Bible. Again, there are still certain problems with this view. E.g., Matt 10:28, where Jesus says that both a person's body and soul could be destroyed in gehenna <---(word sometimes translated as 'hell'). My tentative interpretation of this is that Jesus meant the destruction would be full and final: That one's body, as well as any future hope of being "an alive/living person (soul)", would be completely lost. Thus, in this way of seeing it, the destruction and/or permanent loss of one's "soul" is the loss of hope of being resurrected, of being "an alive/living person".

I gotta roll

[charleswest]

Hopefully I will expend the needed time to chase down and post some verses that speak to this thread.

A lot come to mind as I read (and now type) but only short phrases. It would be better to include more complete context on the subject.

Any comments Lady Glow?

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P.S. Rick, drop me a PM or if you like for a more complete discussion of iTunes...