AaronBDisney wrote:Interesting take on it, MikeW.
Still seems to me that this can be generally applied to any branch that does not bear fruit. The cutting off, withering and burning indicates to me the Spiritual condition from God's assessment (cutting off), the apparent inevitable manifestation of that branch's inability to be useful in the Kingdom (withering) and the eventual judgment (burning).
This seems to be equally applicable to anyone today as it was to the Jews of that time that refused to believe. Maybe the mutual rejection of Christ by the Jews and Jews by God was more visible, but the general truth, seems to me, could be applied to all.
Do you see my point that it may apply today but not equally so? The main application of Jesus' words was to the distress the disciples of that time would have to endure. This was a prophetic fulfillment. Such prophetic fulfillment would then show an emphasis on that generation and hence not be "equally applicable to anyone today."
And you may have shifted in your topic somewhere since you mentioned the idea of people "that refused to believe." Since your original post was about applying the passage to believers, how then can a believer refuse to believe? Or does a non-believer actually intentionally refuse to believe?
To keep us on the original topic, the question is whether a believer can become fruitless to the point of being cast away. It doesn't seem that Jesus was telling his disciples that any of them would become fruitless. Instead it seems that Jesus just described those people that would not bear fruit -- this purpose probably was for contrast to the main point where Jesus said that their fruit would come from abiding in Christ (John 15:4). (Note that this really is an odd concept to the disciples at that time -- the concept of "abiding in Christ" It is probably a little easier for us today cause we only know Christ through faith, not through seeing His physical body.)
Now John 15:6 really addresses a limited group of people in saying that "he that does not abide in Me will be collected and burned" (paraphrase). This concept of being burned in fire appears to be one of prophetic warning of physical burning that would happen upon Jerusalem at that time. I know though that our minds today often associate this with a concept of an eternal burning hell fire -- but this isn't how Jesus described anything here.
Even in John 15:19, Jesus spoke to His disciples (and always spoke to His disciples) in terms that assured them by telling them "I have chosen you" So these disciples, as a specific group, shouldn't even have a chance to become a broken branch.
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I tend to see the salvation passages used improperly by Armenians and Calvinists by not first seeing that the passages were prophetic fulfillments. (I speak as an amateur about the positions of these groups -- I'm making assumptions here in order to try to present my thought.)
The Calvinists have the idea of "perseverance of the saints" made into a general doctrine. But scripture only addressed such perseverance in connection with the persecution and tribulation that the initial saints had to endure.
The Armenians have the idea of "having to bear fruit" made into a general doctrine. But scripture only addressed such perseverance in connection with the persecution and tribulation that the initial saints had to endure.
The study of the gospels and OT prophecies needs to determine:
1) who the audience is
2) Is the passage directed to the audience and the situations they will encounter?
3) What then applies as a general doctrine?
In the case of John 15, the audience was the tight group of disciples around Jesus. He was giving them last minute instructions and encouragements to help them endure. It was not a time to just share general doctrines. It was a time of assurance to the disciples but also explaining why some people would fall away.
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I think my main point of concern about salvation of people is about how they came to become believers. So the question is "Did they really come to have faith?" and "Were their conversions true and honest?" I just don't sense a way of losing faith.
The big reason against the idea of losing faith would have to do with the problems we encounter during persecution, tribulation, stress and sickness. Should we expect that someone who speaks doubts in these moments ( I include
sickness since drugs or brain tumors can influence what we say) then has lost his salvation? It doesn't seem healthy for us then to even appear to speak judgementally of people who seem to get weak in those moments.
Though I do think that a true believer will tend to (or always will) confess Jesus as Lord, even if threatened or tortured.