Honest Atheism?

[darinhouston]

As far as I can tell Paidion rejects the inspiration of the Old Testament. Yet Paul says it was God-breathed - who should I believe?

I think I agree with you on your view of Scripture -- but, logically, they're not necessarily mutually exclusive. Do you at least acknowledge that two honest spirit-led Christians could disagree on what "God-breathed" meant to Paul? In my youth, I sure thought I understood some clear statements of Scripture that I later found (through informed study) weren't so clear.

I have another (highly hypothetical and unlikely) question for you, Jim, related to the prior ones....

What if we unearthed an ancient text written in Paul's hand and we had uncontrovertable DNA evidence that Paul's sweat was on the parchment -- the text was a letter to his buddy James and he was angry that someone had used his name to write to the church in Rome -- he criticized the heresy contained in the letter and expressed his pain at the households that were being led astray by this doctrine.

Would your Calvinist doctrine change out of your respect for the Truth of Christ and the authority of the Apostles? Or would it remain faithful to the text of Romans as historic scripture?

[seer]

Either way, the spirit does seem to be consistently demonstrated by those of Calvinist leanings and, in my opinion, that fairly common fruit should be a flashing red light to those considering whether it is sound doctrine.

I may be wrong.

Darin, when or where do we take a stand on doctrine? Are we to let everything go? Especially by professing christians? You may think I am harsh, but I have been just as harsh in the past as an Arminian. I have mellowed over the years though... I sorry, I just don't expect this kind of biblical undermining from fellow Christians.

[darinhouston]

Either way, the spirit does seem to be consistently demonstrated by those of Calvinist leanings and, in my opinion, that fairly common fruit should be a flashing red light to those considering whether it is sound doctrine.

I may be wrong.

Darin, when or where do we take a stand on doctrine? Are we to let everything go? Especially by professing christians? You may think I am harsh, but I have been just as harsh in the past as an Arminian. I have mellowed over the years though... I sorry, I just don't expect this kind of biblical undermining from fellow Christians.

I believe we undermine the bible when we deprive honest people the floor to differ -- what of the Radical Reformation? I am thankful to the Lord that He did not let the Reformers completely squelch the differing views of the Anabaptists.

[seer]

I think I agree with you on your view of Scripture -- but, logically, they're not necessarily mutually exclusive. Do you at least acknowledge that two honest spirit-led Christians could disagree on what "God-breathed" meant to Paul? In my youth, I sure thought I understood some clear statements of Scripture that I later found (through informed study) weren't so clear.

Darin, do you believe the OT paints an accurate picture of God? Paul and Jesus did. And that God destroyed sinners and their offspring a number of times? That He hates sin? What gives any one of us the right to pick and choose? Some homosexual "christians" claim the the NT does not condemn homsexuality - perhaps they are right? Should we offer them the right hand of fellowship? Where does it end?

Would your Calvinist doctrine change out of your respect for the Truth of Christ and the authority of the Apostles? Or would it remain faithful to the text of Romans as historic scripture?

If you want to question God's ability to preserve His Holy Writ - feel free, I don't.

[seer]

I believe we undermine the bible when we deprive honest people the floor to differ -- what of the Radical Reformation? I am thankful to the Lord that He did not let the Reformers completely squelch the differing views of the Anabaptists.

So what of Paul's quote:

For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group. They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain.

Was he undermining the truth when he said their mouths must be stopped? Did he know they were just honest people that had an honest difference of opinion?

[darinhouston]

Darin, do you believe the OT paints an accurate picture of God? Paul and Jesus did. And that God destroyed sinners and their offspring a number of times? That He hates sin?

I do.

What gives any one of us the right to pick and choose? Some homosexual "christians" claim the the NT does not condemn homsexuality - perhaps they are right? Should we offer them the right hand of fellowship? Where does it end?

It definitely begins and ends in love. I would offer the right hand of fellowship to a homosexual christian that makes such a claim -- if they respect the Spirit enough to abstain due to NT teachings regarding sexuality in the face of a disagreement over the continuity of OT views regarding homosexuality, then we can disagree and I can tell them what I think truth is without disfellowshipping them even if they disagree. If they are also in flagrant disobedience to the NT teachings of sexuality, then I would gently reveal truth and if they don't turn away confront the sin through church discipline with the support of others/elders and not on my own.

If you want to question God's ability to preserve His Holy Writ - feel free, I don't.

I believe God preserves exactly what He needs to when and how He needs to. I don't supernaturalize the bible in the way some others do -- I understand there were (now known with some certainty) clearly erroneous textual variants in the Septuagint that Jesus referred to as Scripture. Perhaps even Jesus didn't have the same idea of perfect transmission and supernatural preservation of every jot and tittle that some do today. Clearly the great Truths of the bible that are necessary to know and love and follow God are revealed and preserved, but maybe we don't have every word that it would be beneficial to have -- perhaps we have even erred in our addition of certain texts to the Canon. I have no reason to doubt today's Canon (but what of the Apocrypha?), but what I'm more interested in doing is following the Truth as God reveals it to me every day as that Truth is revealed through whatever means than to faithfully serve a piece of paper.

[darinhouston]

So what of Paul's quote:

For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group. They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain.

Was he undermining the truth when he said their mouths must be stopped? Did he know they were just honest people that had an honest difference of opinion?

Who were these people, and what were they teaching and to whom under what circumstance and to what effect?

[RND]

If I may....

Darin, do you believe the OT paints an accurate picture of God? Paul and Jesus did. And that God destroyed sinners and their offspring a number of times? That He hates sin? What gives any one of us the right to pick and choose? Some homosexual "christians" claim the the NT does not condemn homsexuality - perhaps they are right? Should we offer them the right hand of fellowship? Where does it end?

If "picking and choosing" were a genuine concern you'd keep the seventh-day sabbath and stop eating pork and lobster!

That said, have you ever considered that God was at one time dealing with "two years olds" versus dealing with "college students"? Have you ever asked yourself why God decided to teach Abraham about God's sacrifice by asking Abraham to sacrifice His son? Is it possible that child sacrifice was something Abraham had first hand knowledge of?

Did God destroy the antediluvian world out of vengeance or pity and mercy?

If you want to question God's ability to preserve His Holy Writ - feel free, I don't.

God ate with publicans and sinners, of which I'm sure there were a few that were homosexuals. Yet it is obvious God has mercy and compassion for these as well as you or I. Jim, tell me, do you have mirrors in your home?

[RND]

I believe we undermine the bible when we deprive honest people the floor to differ -- what of the Radical Reformation? I am thankful to the Lord that He did not let the Reformers completely squelch the differing views of the Anabaptists.

So what of Paul's quote:

For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group. They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain.

Was he undermining the truth when he said their mouths must be stopped? Did he know they were just honest people that had an honest difference of opinion?

What were the rebelling against Jim? It was the Sermon on the Mount.

[SteveF]

As far as I can tell Paidion rejects the inspiration of the Old Testament. Yet Paul says it was God-breathed - who should I believe?

Hi seer, just to make sure no one is talking past anyone, maybe it would help if you specified what you understand inspiration to mean. Several people reading this may have different definitions.


PS...I would definitely go with Paul !! But, the question is, what did Paul mean?

On a basic level I believe the men of the Old Testament had contact with God and accurately described those encounters and His character and moral nature, likes and dislikes, etc, as He revealed it. So when for instance when God told Moses that He destroyed the known world by the flood (whether local or universal)I believe that that was a true event. I think a lot of Paidion's problem is focused on God judging or destroying sinners. But he is free to clear this up.

I thought I'd through in my 2 cents about inspiration.

I see the main thrust of Paul in the surrounding verses is about the high value of scripture. He interjects that they are "God-breathed". I think what Paul is focused on is the great gift that God has given us in the Scripture. When Paul uses the term "God-breathed" I think he's saying it's more than a gift but rather something that GOd was involved in the making of.

To use a Christmas example..... You could give me a gift and I could go on about how great and valuable it is. If you actually made the gift for me it would take on a deeper significance. I think when Paul uses term God-breathed, he's saying that God not only provided the scripture for us but was intimately/directly involved.