LimitedNegatives?

thrombomodulin
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Re: LimitedNegatives?

Post by thrombomodulin » Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:46 pm

I asked Steve today on the radio for his thoughts about whether or not \Matthew 5:17 could be understood as an instance of a limited negative. In other words, Jesus affirms that he did come to abolish the law and to fulfill it. I am posting the question here to ask others on this forum what they think about the viability of this approach. Is there any reason this does not work?

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Paidion
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Re: LimitedNegatives?

Post by Paidion » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:19 pm

Let's see. "Think not that I have come to only abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not only to abolish them but also to fulfil them."

It doesn't seem to ring true. Also, it is not strictly in the form of limited negatives in that the first clause is repeated.

Did Christ abolish the law of God? I don't think so. "The law of Christ" which Paul professed to be under, consisted largely of getting at the heart of God's commandments. Christ may have meant that He did not come to abolish God's law, but came to fulfill it in every respect. And surely He did not abolish the prophets!

Did Christ abolish the laws of Moses such as cutting off a woman's hand without mercy for defending her husband in a fight by grabbing the other guy's testicles? Perhaps so. But then in what sense did he "fulfill" such laws?

A third possibility is that He did not come to abolish the Hebrew writings known as "The Law" (Torah) and "The Prophets", but to fulfill the prophecies written in them.
Looking at the context may help us to decide which one of the three, Jesus meant:

Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I tell you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is fulfilled. (Matthew 5:17,18)

This seems consistent with the third option. But then Jesus immediately afterward says:

Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. You have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.’ but I tell you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, ‘you fool!’ shall be liable to the Gehenna of fire. (Matthew 5:19-22)

So Jesus seems to be saying that rather than abolish the law of God, He will personally fulfill it and teach His disciples to do the same, that is to fulfill the heart of the law, and not the external form only. But He would fulfill "the Prophets" by fulfilling their prophecies about Him.
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thrombomodulin
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Re: LimitedNegatives?

Post by thrombomodulin » Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:28 pm

Paidion,

Thanks for your reply. You are right that it is not strictly in the form of all other limited negatives. I agree that Christ came to fulfill the law. The idea I am considering is that He is indicating here that he will first fulfill the law, and once it has been fulfilled then he will abolish it.

Hebrews 8:13 states that "he (Christ) made the first one obsolete". How do you understand this verse? Is there anythingdifferent about making the old covenant "obsolete" and "abolishing" it?

If it were a limited negative, it would follow that the warning about "Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments..." would only have been applicable for a few years until the time when Hebrews 8:13 applies - that is to say, the time when the new covenant was established.

Peter

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Paidion
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Re: LimitedNegatives?

Post by Paidion » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:13 am

Yes Peter, the first covenant was made obsolete and "ready to vanish away". It was replaced by the new covenant — and I am sure the law of Moses was passé under the new covenant. But the LAW OF GOD never passes away. The law of Moses, including the 10 commandments, were but an attempt to express the LAW OF GOD in practical terms. But Jesus expressed that LAW OF GOD much better in His "Sermon on the Mount" (so-called) as recorded in Matthew 5,6, and 7 and in the "Sermon on the Plain" (Luke 6:20-49).
Paidion

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thrombomodulin
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Re: LimitedNegatives?

Post by thrombomodulin » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:34 pm

When Jesus spoke of the "Law and Prophets" I had always assumed he meant the laws of the old covenant. I expect Jesus, since his purpose in coming was to bring about the new covenenant, ought to say something to the effect that he will not abolish the LAW OF GOD, but will abolish the LAW OF MOSES. Thus, is this an accurate representation of your suggestion?
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the [LAW OF GOD] or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish [the LAW OF GOD] but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the [LAW OF MOSES] until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these [LAW OF MOSES] commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven."

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jeremiah
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Re: LimitedNegatives?

Post by jeremiah » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:58 pm

hi peter,
i don't know this will change or help the conversation much, but... i understand the phrase, "the law and the prophets" to be a very specific label of the whole of "the torrah[all of it] and the nevi'im[the prophets]". i'll admit, i've never been certain as to what exactly v 18 and on is saying. but i am fairly certain that phrase refers to those specific oracles given by God to the jews, as a whole and not just the commandments that are a part of those oracles.
grace and peace...
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

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Paidion
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Re: LimitedNegatives?

Post by Paidion » Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:30 am

Paul wrote to the Corinthians:

To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. (1Co 9:21 ESV)

So when Paul preached to the Gentiles who were outside the law of Moses, Paul became as one outside the law of Moses, in order to win them. But he is careful to point out that, in doing so, he didn't live outside the law of God, but under the law of Christ. The law of Christ is Christ's teachings such as He expessed in the "Sermon on the Mount" in which He clarifies the Law of God.
Paidion

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Re: LimitedNegatives?

Post by jriccitelli » Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:29 am

Jesus may be saying;
'Not only have 'I' fulfilled the Law, but 'I' will fulfill the Law in you also. Not only are you then free from the Law, but you are now free to be Holy, as He is Holy'

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Re: LimitedNegatives?

Post by parsonsmom » Sun May 13, 2012 1:41 am

Suzana wrote:
steve wrote:... For those unfamiliar with this, a limited negative would be an expression that is constructed like this: "not A, but B", which, in fact, means this: "not ONLY A, but ALSO B."...
Steve, I know I've heard you talk about these, but I can't recall what you said about the origin of the expression. That is, is it an explanation deduced and arrived at through necessity, to understand seeming contradictions; or is it a known and recognisable Hebrew or Greek form of expression (& found elsewhere in literature)?
Thanks,
Where do you find these scriptures.? please list them; Parsonmom

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Paidion
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Re: LimitedNegatives?

Post by Paidion » Sun May 13, 2012 9:18 am

Well, you could start with this one, Parsonmom:

Let not yours be the outward adorning with braiding of hair, decoration of gold, and wearing of fine clothing, but let it be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable jewel of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God’s sight is very precious. I Peter 3:3,4

If you do not accept Peter's instructions here as a limited negative, then in order to carry out these instructions you must refrain from wearing fine clothing, and from braiding your hair or wearing a gold wedding ring.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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