What's the purpose of Israel in history?

[Paidion]

If "destroyed completely" is the meaning of "salted," then the likelihood is greater that Gehenna is the place of utter destruction, as AD 70 was.

True, but that 's a pretty big IF. For immediately after Jesus said, "Everyone will be salted with fire," He said, "Salt is good, but if the salt has lost its saltiness, how will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another.” Surely the latter sentence relates to the former. In the latter, Jesus says, "Salt is good." Would He be affirming that complete destruction is good?

[Homer]

Paidion,

If the salt/fire in v.49 means the fire of hell, and means the same in v.50, how are we to have it in ourselves now?

[Homer]

Steve,

You wrote:

This brings us back to the identification of Gehenna. If the "seasoned with salt" passage is about Gehenna (as the immediate context seems to support)

What is there in the immediate context that you think supports the statement as referring to Gehenna?

[steve]

The immediate context (vv.43-38) is about being cast into Gehenna.

[Paidion]

The immediate context (vv.43-38) is about being cast into Gehenna.

Exactly, Steve. And IF (maybe another big "if") Gehenna IS about future correction (however uncomfortable or painful), being salted with this fire would be good. For it would be better to be corrected than to continue in hurting, hateful behaviour.

"Salt" is a helpful metaphor. Physical salt placed on meat kills the microörganisms which cause decay, and preserves the meat. We used to place salt on slugs in our garden, and it quickly killed them. Salt can be a purifier. There's no doubt the unregenerate will need purification when they are raised in the "resurrection of the unrighteous" (which Paul mentioned in Acts 24:15).

[Paidion]

If the salt/fire in v.49 means the fire of hell, and means the same in v.50, how are we to have it in ourselves now?

Homer, I didn't say "salt" MEANS "the fire of hell." I indicated that "salted with fire" may refer to purification in Gehenna. In other words "salt" may be tantamount to "purification". We certainly need purification even now. What do you think is indicated by having salt in ourselves now?

What is there in the immediate context that you think supports the statement as referring to Gehenna?

Steve answered that question. Just examine the previous verses.

[Homer]

Well, I looked at the immediate context and see absolutely no hint of 70AD. What I see is reward promised on one hand contrasted on the other with destruction. If this is not eschatological, what would be the reward? Jesus seems to have warned His followers about a rough go in this world with a reward to follow (there He goes again, appealing to their self interest ):


Mark 9:38-50, New American Standard Bible (NASB)

38. John said to Him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us.” 39. But Jesus said, “Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me. 40. For he who is not against us is for us. 41. For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you, he will not lose his reward.

42. “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea. 43. If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44. [where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.] 45. If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, 46. [where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.] 47. If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48. where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.

49. “For everyone will be salted with fire. 50 Salt is good; but if the salt becomes unsalty, with what will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another.”

You have nothing to base your case on other than your peculiar understanding of Gehenna, especially in light of the common understanding at that time. From Wikipedia:

The ancient Aramaic paraphrase-translations of the Hebrew Bible supply the term "Gehinnom" frequently to verses touching upon resurrection, judgment, and the fate of the wicked. This may also include addition of the phrase "second death", as in the final chapter of the Book of Isaiah, where the Hebrew version does not mention either Gehinnom or the Second Death, whereas the Targums add both. In this the Targums are parallel to the Gospel of Mark addition of "Gehenna" to the quotation of the Isaiah verses describing the corpses "where their worm does not die".

[steve]

If this is not eschatological, what would be the reward?

Not all rewards are eschatological (e.g., Ruth 2:12; 1 Sam.24:19; Ps.19:11; 58:11; 127:3; 1 Cor.9:18; 1 Tim.5:18). In particular, Jeremiah spoke of those who would survive the holocaust of his time as having their "life [i.e., survival] for a prize" (Jer.21:9; 38:2; 39:18; 45:5 NKJV, ESV, RSV). If I were a survivor of the holocaust of AD 70, having lived in Palestine just prior to the devastation, I would be inclined to view my being spared as a very desirable reward indeed.

You have nothing to base your case on other than your peculiar understanding of Gehenna, especially in light of the common understanding at that time.

I have nothing to base my case upon? Maybe you should read my earlier post where I gave my reasons for identifying Gehenna with the AD70 holocaust (my second post on page one of theis thread— http://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... &sk=t&sd=a ). I have only scripture to base it upon.

Perhaps also, you should be asking yourself, "On what do my sources base their case for my position about Gehenna?" The answer is clearly "Upon apocryphal Judith and Enoch—and upon the rabbinic traditions and Aramiac paraphrases that are based upon these sources." I am not interested in knowing how uninspired rabbis paraphrased the Old Testament, during the intertestamental period, after they had accepted novel pagan ideas from non-canonical sources.

Almost all scholars see the influence of Egyptian, Greek and Persian mythologies upon the postmortem scenarios in Enoch and Judith. No one has yet found a convincing precedent in the canonical Old Testament—which is where I would look for authoritative information about such things, prior to Christ.