Free Will and Satan's sin

Angels & Demons
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njd83
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Free Will and Satan's sin

Post by njd83 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 12:01 pm

So I have been praying and seeking and reading, searching for answers to the whole "who what why how" of God and the devil and everything.

I want to throw this out there and see what everyone thinks, since you're all thinkers and have lots of experience as believers.

The Devil/Satan did not want to serve God for 7000 years watching over humans. I believe the plan of God was to rear up sons, two different classes, from angels and men. Angels start with powers, gifts and knowledge. Being spiritual they are from heaven, immortal. But are not given to procreation. Man starts with no knowledge of good and evil but with the in-born ability and will of God to become fathers/mothers by the fact of his own fleshly creation. (the Earth/biological/physical world is all about procreation, multiplying, etc) Angels also are to learn how to become fathers by proxy, by serving, watching over and teaching humans, being in subjection to God the Father themselves. Therefore, all learn how to be Fatherly in the end through subjection to the Father.

The Devil represents the easy way. He didn't want to learn subjection to the Father and become fatherly himself through so many years watching/serving/teaching over "inferior" creatures of flesh. He was high and mighty and wanted God's glory without having to learn "obedience through the things in which he suffered" (Heb 5:8) like Jesus showed us the Way. There is only one way to partake of the the glory of the Father, that is through faith and subjection.

So it seems he went the easy way of:
Eze 28:16 money, greed, internal violence
Eze 28:17 beauty, vanity
Isa 14:13-14 self-will, glory seeking without godly character

Irenaeus:
God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves." - A.H. Book 4 Ch 37

"Man has received the knowledge of good and evil. It is good to obey God, and to believe in Him, and to keep His commandment, and this is the life of man; as not to obey God is evil, and this is his death. Since God, therefore, gave [to man] such mental power (magnanimitatem) man knew both the good of obedience and the evil of disobedience, that the eye of the mind, receiving experience of both, may with judgment make choice of the better things; and that he may never become indolent or neglectful of God’s command; and learning by experience that it is an evil thing which deprives him of life, that is, disobedience to God, may never attempt it at all, but that, knowing that what preserves his life, namely, obedience to God, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness....so also does the mind, receiving through the experience of both the knowledge of what is good, become more tenacious of its preservation, by acting in obedience to God: in the first place, casting away, by means of repentance, disobedience, as being something disagreeable and nauseous; and afterwards coming to understand what it really is, that it is contrary to goodness and sweetness, so that the mind may never even attempt to taste disobedience to God....How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again, can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that thou, at the outset, shouldest hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the glory of God....Offer to Him thy heart in a soft and tractable state, and preserve the form in which the Creator has fashioned thee, having moisture in thyself, lest, by becoming hardened, thou lose the impressions of His fingers. But by preserving the framework thou shalt ascend to that which is perfect, for the moist clay which is in thee is hidden [there] by the workmanship of God. His hand fashioned thy substance; He will cover thee over [too] within and without with pure gold and silver, and He will adorn thee to such a degree, that even “the King Himself shall have pleasure in thy beauty.” But if thou, being obstinately hardened, dost reject the operation of His skill, and show thyself ungrateful towards Him, because thou wert created a [mere] man, by becoming thus ungrateful to God, thou hast at once lost both His workmanship and life. For creation is an attribute of the goodness of God; but to be created is that of human nature. If, then, thou shalt deliver up to Him what is thine, that is, faith towards Him and subjection, thou shalt receive His handiwork, and shall be a perfect work of God....If, however, thou wilt not believe in Him, and wilt flee from His hands, the cause of imperfection shall be in thee who didst not obey, but not in Him who called [thee]. For He commissioned [messengers] to call people to the marriage, but they who did not obey Him deprived themselves of the royal supper. The skill of God, therefore, is not defective, for He has power of the stones to raise up children to Abraham;4 but the man who does not obtain it, is the cause to himself of his own imperfection. Nor, [in like manner], does the light fail because of those who have blinded themselves; but while it remains the same as ever, those who are [thus] blinded are involved in darkness through their own fault." A.H. Book 4 Ch 39

"It is therefore one and the same God the Father who has prepared good things with Himself for those who desire His fellowship, and who remain in subjection to Him; and who has prepared the eternal fire for the ringleader of the apostasy, the devil, and those who revolted with him, into which [fire] the Lord has declared those men shall be sent who have been set apart by themselves on His left hand. And this is what has been spoken by the prophet, “I am a jealous God, making peace, and creating evil things;” thus making peace and friendship with those who repent and turn to Him, and bringing [them to] unity, but preparing for the impenitent, those who shun the light, eternal fire and outer darkness, which are evils indeed to those persons who fall into them.....because [the devil] was envious of God’s workmanship, and took in hand to render this [workmanship] an enmity with God. For this cause also God has banished from His presence [the devil]....but He took compassion upon man, who, through want of care no doubt, but still wickedly [on the part of another], became involved in disobedience; and He turned the enmity by which [the devil] had designed to make [man] the enemy of God, against the author of it, by removing His own anger from man, turning it in another direction, and sending it instead upon the serpent." A.H. Book 4 Ch 40

"...the Devil has become the cause of apostasy to himself and others, justly does the Scripture always term those who remain in a state of apostasy "sons of the devil" and "angels of the wicked one"... But with respect to obedience and doctrine we are not all sons of God. Those only are so who believe in Him and do His will." - A.H. Book 4, Ch 41

"as many as fear God and trust in His Son’s advent, and who through faith do establish the Spirit of God in their hearts,—such men as these shall be properly called both “pure,” and “spiritual,” and “those living to God,” because they possess the Spirit of the Father, who purifies man, and raises him up to the life of God....inevitably follows that what is strong will prevail over the weak, so that the weakness of the flesh will be absorbed by the strength of the Spirit; and that the man in whom this takes place cannot in that case be carnal, but Spiritual, because of the fellowship of the Spirit. Thus it is, therefore, that the martyrs bear their witness, and despise death, not after the infirmity of the flesh, but because of the readiness of the Spirit. For when the infirmity of the flesh is absorbed, it exhibits the Spirit as powerful; and again, when the Spirit absorbs the weakness [of the flesh], it possesses the flesh as an inheritance in itself, and from both of these is formed a living man,—living, indeed, because he partakes of the Spirit, but man, because of the substance of flesh.... the flesh possessed by the Spirit, forgetful indeed of what belongs to it, and adopting the quality of the Spirit, being made conformable to the Word of God.... A.H. Book 5 Ch 9

"As, therefore, he who has gone forward to the better things, and has brought forth the fruit of the Spirit, is saved altogether because of the communion of the Spirit; so also he who has continued in the aforesaid works of the flesh, being truly reckoned as carnal, because he did not receive the Spirit of God, shall not have power to inherit the kingdom of heaven." A.H. Book 5 Ch 11

"And through Him they shall become accustomed to partake of the glory of God the father" A.H. Book 5 Ch 35

A.H. "Against Heresies"
Last edited by njd83 on Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Paidion
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Re: Free Will and Satan's sin

Post by Paidion » Tue Aug 09, 2016 2:28 pm

Just one little point
Angels start with powers, gifts and knowledge. Being spiritual they are from heaven, immortal. But are not given to procreation.


When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came into the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown. (Gen 6:1,2,4)

Some Jewish scholars as well as some Christian scholars think that these "sons of God" are angels, and when they copulated with human women the resulting children were the Nephilim (giants) of old.

In the book of Job, angels are called "sons of God":

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.
Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the LORD.


This verse in Deuteronomy may also be referring to angels:

Deuteronomy 32:8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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njd83
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Re: Free Will and Satan's sin

Post by njd83 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:02 pm

Never thought of or saw dueteronomy 32:8. Really cool and helpful verse

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Re: Free Will and Satan's sin

Post by njd83 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:04 pm

If I hear you correctly, I meant angels were not given to procreation, not that they didn't have the power to do so

Enoch 15:3-end talks about the angels marrying women but that God had not appointed wives for them because they were spirit etc

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dwight92070
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Re: Free Will and Satan's sin

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:41 pm

njd83,

You imply that you do not have a great deal of experience as a believer and you want to see what other believers, who have more experience, have to say about your thoughts.

Well, it seems to me that you have a ton of confusion about angels, Satan, God, and man and I think I see one area where you could be getting some of that confusion: Reading other books or sources beside the Bible itself. I am not saying that a believer should never read other books, but they can never equal the Bible for accuracy and authority and truth. Our doctrine must come from the Bible, not from any other books. The true narrative of history about God, Satan, creation, angels, man, etc. can only be found in the Bible. Other books and writings may comment on the Bible and speculate about the history mentioned in the Bible, but if those comments and speculations don't agree with the Bible, they must be discarded.

Nor can we trust our own ideas and speculations about those issues. There is one standard for truth in this world, the Bible. Many books have been written about the Bible, which contain some truth in them, but they are not our standard. The source of truth is not found in them, but only in the Bible.

In the Psalms we read: Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. Jesus said, "If you are truly My disciples, you will abide in My word, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.

God bless you,

Dwight

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Re: Free Will and Satan's sin

Post by njd83 » Wed Aug 10, 2016 12:21 am

dwight92070 wrote:njd83,

You imply that you do not have a great deal of experience as a believer and you want to see what other believers, who have more experience, have to say about your thoughts.

Well, it seems to me that you have a ton of confusion about angels, Satan, God, and man and I think I see one area where you could be getting some of that confusion: Reading other books or sources beside the Bible itself. I am not saying that a believer should never read other books, but they can never equal the Bible for accuracy and authority and truth. Our doctrine must come from the Bible, not from any other books. The true narrative of history about God, Satan, creation, angels, man, etc. can only be found in the Bible. Other books and writings may comment on the Bible and speculate about the history mentioned in the Bible, but if those comments and speculations don't agree with the Bible, they must be discarded.

Nor can we trust our own ideas and speculations about those issues. There is one standard for truth in this world, the Bible. Many books have been written about the Bible, which contain some truth in them, but they are not our standard. The source of truth is not found in them, but only in the Bible.

In the Psalms we read: Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. Jesus said, "If you are truly My disciples, you will abide in My word, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.

God bless you,

Dwight
Hey Dwight,

You know I like Christians because they are so nice. Compared to every other ideology, Biblical ideas when thought through are beyond any other system. But it's not just the system, it's the grace that empowers Christianity.

Anyway you know the thing about what you are saying is this: I have a book that is the ultimate authority, therefore it is the ultimate authority.

What I mean is truth is borne out, right? We know the bible is true because of various good reasons: reliable men of God died for its claims, it's actually true in practice and God supervenes over its reader and application, Jesus was witnessed to have done miracles and resurrected, many of us have personally witnessed miracles or knew others who have, and we just plain experience it's truth claims about God's goodness and Spirit, and love and power and wise commandments.

But men themselves have put the Bible together over the last 1800 years and haven't been as saintly as those early apostles and prophets were, having disagreements, heresies, false doctrines, etc.

Did you know the early church was premillenial in eschatology but shifted to amillennial towards the 3rd century due to historical reasons/counter heresy fears/events/etc?

And many doctrinal things like these go on even till today.

All I'm saying is if there are reliable books outside the bible, like the Shepherd of Hermas and early Fathers, which clear up much (all?) doctrinal and historical confusion, why should a year 2000 interpretation take precedent over what the disciples of the apostles taught?

Especially when the same ancient men who approved most of our modern bible books we have today, also approved other books that were only later discarded by more recent theologians?

Example: Shepherd of Hermas and apocalypse of Peter were approved books as stated in the Muratorian Canon (Caius was a bishop). We get our same approved biblical books from the same early fathers that also approved some of these other books that seem both very valid to me, and they also clarify the truths the church has been struggling with doctrinally for a while now!

If the Shepherd was the most polar book in the second century among Christians, why do we think we are in our doctrine and theology, 1800 years later, right, when it contradicts early church teaching in the Shepherd? And thus making way for the thousands of denominations?... I'm just making a point about some reformation foolishness...

Sure the Bible's true. We all know that. But why don't we all agree on its meaning and interpretation?

Irenaeus himself (180 AD) said "those Christians who allegorize the Book of Revelation are immature Christians". But within a hundred years or so the whole church was amillennial! :)

Any thoughts?

edit: Irenaeus didn't say that exactly. I was quoting a paraphrase but I didn't know it wasn't a direct quote. Ken Johnson Th.D. Irenaeus actually said something more like "those who allegorize Revelation are inconsistent with themselves about their doctrine"
Last edited by njd83 on Mon Sep 12, 2016 11:06 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Free Will and Satan's sin

Post by njd83 » Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:59 am

Paidion wrote:Just one little point
Angels start with powers, gifts and knowledge. Being spiritual they are from heaven, immortal. But are not given to procreation.


When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came into the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown. (Gen 6:1,2,4)

Some Jewish scholars as well as some Christian scholars think that these "sons of God" are angels, and when they copulated with human women the resulting children were the Nephilim (giants) of old.

In the book of Job, angels are called "sons of God":

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.
Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the LORD.


This verse in Deuteronomy may also be referring to angels:

Deuteronomy 32:8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.
Paidion,

Did you know a Church Father, while discussing Greek mythology in arguing the Christian faith, refers to the Greek Titans (demons) as the same biblical idea as the offspring of angelic copulation with human women?

Origen - Against Celsius, Book 4, Ch 32 and 92

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Re: Free Will and Satan's sin

Post by dwight92070 » Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:52 pm

njd83,

Deciding what books should or should not be accepted by the early Christians was definitely not an overnight process, but even before the end of the 1st Century,and early in the 2nd Century,some leading Christians accepted the authority of the books which we now call our New Testament. (The Canon of the New Testament by Bruce Metzger, page 61). Early Christians said in the Muratorian Canon: " We receive only the apocalypses of John and Peter, though some of us are not willing that the latter be read in church." So they already had some doubts about the apocalypse of Peter, i.e. that it be considered divine scripture. (same book, page 307) On that same page, we read: "But Hermas wrote the Sheperd, very recently, in our times, in the city of Rome ... And therefore it ought indeed to be read; but it cannot be read publicly to the people in church either among the prophets, whose number is complete, or among the apostles, for it is after (their) time." So we see that the early church definitely did not give the Sheperd of Hermas equal status as the divine scripture, although they did encourage reading it.

I trust that God has watched over the collection of the books that He wants us to regard as His word. Therefore, IMO, those are the books we should look to first and measure all others by them, not the other way around.

Dwight

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Re: Free Will and Satan's sin

Post by Paidion » Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:40 am

Hi Dwight, you wrote:I trust that God has watched over the collection of the books that He wants us to regard as His word.
So how do we know what collection of books He wants us to regard as His word? The Catholic collection? The Orthodox collection? The Protestant collection? Each collection contains a set of books that differs from the other two. How do you know which collection is the right one? Indeed, how do you know if any of the three collections is the right one? Each of the collections was assembled by man. If one of them is "the collection of the books that He wants us to regard as His word" then were those people who compiled that collection inspired to do so? If so, there must be inspiration outside of the "right" collection. And if there is inspiration outside of the right collection, then why could not some of the early Christian writers, whose writings which are outside of all three collections have been inspired? Why could not such writings be, or at least contain His word?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Re: Free Will and Satan's sin

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:48 am

Paidon,

I accept the Protestant list. If you look into the Catholic church today or the Othodox church today, you see some obvious errors and false teachings,even going by the books in their own list! And these errors and false teachings, IMO, are a deal breaker, as far as me following them. Obviously, there are many errors and false teachings in the Protestant church as well, especially since there are thousands of denominations. So how do I know which one to choose? Again, I look to those who are following the truths given in their own list of the Scriptures, to the best of their ability.

Dwight

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