Why Couldn't Satan be Literally Imprisoned Now?

Angels & Demons
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Paidion
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Re: Why Couldn't Satan be Literally Imprisoned Now?

Post by Paidion » Wed May 25, 2016 12:54 pm

Hi PR, you wrote:There is a very clear pattern developing here. Pope Francis believes that Christians and Muslims worship the same God...
In fact, Christians and Muslims DO worship the same God. Muslims who have converted to Christianity continue to pray to Allah because "Allah" means "God" in Arabic.

Muslims see God's character and acts differently from the way Christians perceive Him, but there is also a variety of understandings of God's character among the Christian denominations. Does that mean that each of these denominations, worship a different God from that which the others worship?
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Re: Why Couldn't Satan be Literally Imprisoned Now?

Post by PR » Wed May 25, 2016 2:08 pm

Paidion, I don't know how familiar you are with the Koran. I read it through twice a few years ago and my first impression was that it contained several stories also found in the Bible, but poorly written and filled with obvious inaccuracies. On that basis alone, I don't see how it could be considered on par with the Bible, or talking about the same God.

It reminded me of Joseph Smith and the book of Mormon, they seem to me to have been making their religions up as they went along if you know what I mean.

And what about the Muslim's profound difference with Christians in their belief about Jesus? Where is the grace in Islam? What happened on the cross? The Koran infers that it was Judas or somebody else, but not Jesus, on the cross. How can this be from the same God? It makes absolutely no sense to me.

Thanks

PR

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Re: Why Couldn't Satan be Literally Imprisoned Now?

Post by steve7150 » Wed May 25, 2016 4:33 pm

And what about the Muslim's profound difference with Christians in their belief about Jesus? Where is the grace in Islam? What happened on the cross? The Koran infers that it was Judas or somebody else, but not Jesus, on the cross. How can this be from the same God? It makes absolutely no sense to me.




Yes Islam says Jesus is a prophet and Islam specifically states "God has no Son" and that Jesus was never crucified but Judas was for the purpose of deceiving the Christians. Allah is a god of war whereas in Christianity "love" is what God is. Islam is 180 degrees different then Christ and IMHO is the opposite of Christ and was established to counter Christianity. It is truly Satan's religion.
Muhammed who claims divine revelation married a 6 year old but didn't consummate until she was 9. He beheaded dozens, maybe hundreds of people who opposed him and that's where terrorists get the idea of beheadings from. The idea is not from so called "extremist groups", the idea is from Muhammed who was Allah's only messanger.

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Paidion
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Re: Why Couldn't Satan be Literally Imprisoned Now?

Post by Paidion » Wed May 25, 2016 5:11 pm

PR wrote:Paidion, I don't know how familiar you are with the Koran. I read it through twice a few years ago and my first impression was that it contained several stories also found in the Bible, but poorly written and filled with obvious inaccuracies. On that basis alone, I don't see how it could be considered on par with the Bible, or talking about the same God.

It reminded me of Joseph Smith and the book of Mormon, they seem to me to have been making their religions up as they went along if you know what I mean.
And what about the Muslim's profound difference with Christians in their belief about Jesus? Where is the grace in Islam? What happened on the cross? The Koran infers that it was Judas or somebody else, but not Jesus, on the cross. How can this be from the same God? It makes absolutely no sense to me.
The Muslims are monotheists. They believe there is one God only. They also believe that God is the Creator of the Universe.
Paul, who wrote part of the Bible also taught that that God is One (1 Cor 8:6, Eph 4:6, 1 Tim 2:5)
Moses, author of Genesis also stated that God created the heavens and the earth. (Gen 1:1)

Clearly, Mohammed, Paul, and Moses all believed in the same God.

Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are the only monotheistic religions on earth. All other religions either believe in several or many gods or in no gods at all.

I agree that there are stories in the Koran which are false and are not consistent with the Biblical writings. I also agree that the Quran denies that Jesus is the Son of God and that He was crucified. But all of that is irrelevant to the question of whether or not they believe in the same God.

Again, consider Christian denominations.

Trinitarians (Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists) believe that the one God is compound, made up of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, 3 distinct divine Individuals.

Modalists, (United Pentecostal Church, various forms of the Apostolic Church) believe God is a single divine Individual who expresses Himself in three modes, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They compare it to an actor of long ago, who presented himself as several different individuals by wearing a variety of masks.

Unitarians, (The Unitarian-Universalist Church, The Christadelphian Church) believe that God is a single divine Individual, and that Jesus is not divine in the same sense)

Does each of these three, in your opinion, believe in three different Gods?
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Re: Why Couldn't Satan be Literally Imprisoned Now?

Post by Singalphile » Wed May 25, 2016 8:57 pm

I looked around a little bit, and I couldn't find anybody saying that Satan is currently literally imprisoned and thus out of the picture. The idea would only fit with a- and post-millennials, of course, and it may only make much sense in a partial-preterist scheme.

But postmillennials usually say that Rev 20:1-4 is still future and ammillennials usually put it at the cross, I think.

But from what little I know, it looks like Rev 12 has Satan (i.e., the dragon) active before and after Christ's birth, then there's a war in heaven, then Satan is cast to earth at some point, and then he makes war against the Church and is active for some time. This could be when he was prowling around looking to devour. From the preterist view, the events of AD 70 would have basically inaugurated the full establishment of the new covenant, and at that time Satan would have been captured and imprisoned. That's where we could be now. Satan is gone, out of the picture, but demons (i.e., the devil's angels) are still free.

I do see problems with all that, but not really more than with all the other views.

So any ammills have any thoughts?

Thank you.
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Re: Why Couldn't Satan be Literally Imprisoned Now?

Post by jaydam » Wed May 25, 2016 10:54 pm

Singalphile wrote:I looked around a little bit, and I couldn't find anybody saying that Satan is currently literally imprisoned and thus out of the picture. The idea would only fit with a- and post-millennials, of course, and it may only make much sense in a partial-preterist scheme.

But postmillennials usually say that Rev 20:1-4 is still future and ammillennials usually put it at the cross, I think.

But from what little I know, it looks like Rev 12 has Satan (i.e., the dragon) active before and after Christ's birth, then there's a war in heaven, then Satan is cast to earth at some point, and then he makes war against the Church and is active for some time. This could be when he was prowling around looking to devour. From the preterist view, the events of AD 70 would have basically inaugurated the full establishment of the new covenant, and at that time Satan would have been captured and imprisoned. That's where we could be now. Satan is gone, out of the picture, but demons (i.e., the devil's angels) are still free.

I do see problems with all that, but not really more than with all the other views.

So any ammills have any thoughts?

Thank you.
Making war against the church could still happen at the same time as Satan's confinement.

It seems you speak of Satan as being completely imprisoned, but that is not what the verse says. It speaks of the perspective of Satan's confinement, being restricted from deceiving the nations.

It says nothing of his ability to war against God's people, or to deceive people on a personal level.

Some see Revelation 12 as telling us that the whole world is Satan's dominion because he was cast down to it.

I have been toying with an idea that when Satan is cast to "earth" in Revelation 12, he is cast not cast down to earth, but to Israel. Steve makes a great case for seeing the Greek "ge" in Revelation as speaking of land rather than earth. How fitting that Satan is cast down to join his children (John 8:44) in the land, and join them in their judgment? Thus, the physical judgment of Israel in 70 AD would coincide with the judgment of Satan.

I believe this would fit, because the Greek of Revelation 12:9 distinguishes between Satan the deceiver of the whole world (oikoumene) and the place Satan is thrown to (ge). In other words, Satan is not seen as thrown to oikoumene, but to ge.

Thus, 12:12 would read, "Woe to the inhabitants of the land (Israel) and the sea (I would believe a case can be made that sea here can also point to Israel)..."

In other words, 12:12 is speaking of a woe to Israel because a pissed off Satan has been cast into their midst. And this would align with my beliefs regarding how Israel's fall is described in history and elsewhere in the book of Revelation.

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Re: Why Couldn't Satan be Literally Imprisoned Now?

Post by PR » Thu May 26, 2016 8:16 am

Paidion, I don't understand how you can think that the same God would give such two contradictory messages as the Bible and the Koran. It's clear to me that one is genuine and one is counterfeit.

It's not the same as two groups of people coming to different conclusions about the same message (meaning the Bible). It's two different messages claiming to be from God, yet they contradict each other. So how can they be from the same being? Is God contradicting Himself?

I believe that Mohammed's initial messenger was demonic, not from God. He even wondered about that himself in the beginning. His wife was the one who assured him that he had heard from God. History is full of imposters who claimed to be someone else.

Your one God argument doesn't make sense to me. Just because a being or someone claiming to have heard from such being who says that they're God doesn't automatically make it true. There are times when Satan comes disguised as an angel of light.

Thanks,

PR

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Re: Why Couldn't Satan be Literally Imprisoned Now?

Post by steve7150 » Thu May 26, 2016 8:25 am

I agree that there are stories in the Koran which are false and are not consistent with the Biblical writings. I also agree that the Quran denies that Jesus is the Son of God and that He was crucified. But all of that is irrelevant to the question of whether or not they believe in the same God.







Irrelevant? The same God would have the same character. One God is "love" the other god orders either the killing or enslavement of infidels, one God calls his followers "children" the other calls them "slaves." One God has a son he calls "beloved" and other says he had no son? How could the same God make opposite claims and have an opposite character? I could list numerous other opposites , but the one thing they have in common is that they are "one." But so are many pagan gods yet no one claims they are the Christian God.

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Re: Why Couldn't Satan be Literally Imprisoned Now?

Post by Paidion » Thu May 26, 2016 10:54 am

PR wrote:Paidion, I don't understand how you can think that the same God would give such two contradictory messages as the Bible and the Koran. It's clear to me that one is genuine and one is counterfeit.

It's not the same as two groups of people coming to different conclusions about the same message (meaning the Bible). It's two different messages claiming to be from God, yet they contradict each other. So how can they be from the same being? Is God contradicting Himself?
I don't disagree with anything you wrote above except your thought that Muslims and Christians do not believe in the same God.
Did I claim that the same God gave two contradictory messages as are found in the Bible vs the Koran? No, I did not.
Is God contradicting Himself? No. I have never claimed that the Koran was given by God.

I think you confuse the fact that proponents of two different religion CLAIM to have a message from God with the fact that proponents of two different religions BELIEVE in the same God.
Your one God argument doesn't make sense to me. Just because a being or someone claiming to have heard from such being who says that they're God doesn't automatically make it true. There are times when Satan comes disguised as an angel of light.
Everything you wrote above is true. But I don't think it is my argument that you are opposing. You are opposing what you presume to be my argument.

Even those of the native religion of the indigenous people of U.S.A. and Canada believe in the Creator (the same God in which we believe). I have attended fish fries and heard persons who adhered to the native religion give thanks to the Creator for the food. It would have been difficult to distinguish it from a Christian prayer of thanks except the name of Jesus was not uttered.
It doesn't follow from their false beliefs that they can receive messages from deceased ancestors, etc. that the Creator to whom they give thanks is a different God.

Indeed, the fact that the same God is worshipped by the Muslims can be an opening for evangelism. The apostle Paul employed this opening:

So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. (Acts 17:22,23 NASB)

Notice Paul said that the One they worshipped in ignorance, is the One that he was proclaiming to them. Thus when they worshipped this Unknown God, they worshipped the same God as that whom Paul worshipped.
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Re: Why Couldn't Satan be Literally Imprisoned Now?

Post by morbo3000 » Thu May 26, 2016 10:05 pm

There is a huge epistemological issue with both the OP and the current statements about Allah. I think I asked it earlier.

The OP was why couldn't Satan be literally imprisoned?

My question: How do we know if Satan is or isn't imprisoned? Isn't that a metaphysical reality? Or is it just interpretation of a text?

If the greatest malevolent being to inhabit the universe is loose or in prison, we should be able to know through more than attempting to divine an ancient letter.

The same applies to God(s). How do we know that the one-true-god is Yahweh, or Allah, or both? Is God wearing YHWH clothes? Or Allah clothes? If you are saying that the Koran describes God one way, and the Bible describes him a different way, how can I tell the difference in the real world? How can I look at a natural, political, or personal event and say "that has yahweh's finger on it," or "that has Allah's finger on it."

If the all-creating benevolent deity is loose in the universe, we should be able to discern his identity through more than an ancient text.

When the debates throw one holy book or text against the other, it's like only knowing about surgery through reading medical books.

Where is, or isn't Satan? Which God is he?

Show me.
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