Where have all the demons gone?

Angels & Demons
Ian
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Re: Where have all the demons gone?

Post by Ian » Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:50 am

I know Steve`s position is that they still exist. He once wrote (I hope he doesn`t mind my quoting him) that demons are able to utlilize the brains of people with very limited spiritual or mental discernment, maybe even do more ("demonization").
I drive a bus for mentally handicapped children in Switzerland. Two of my children have displayed supernatural knowledge of circumstances in my life, beyond their natural ability, one of them malevolently so. The latter I attributed to the demonic. Its timing was uncanny, namely she began this around the time my wife was developing symptoms of ovarian cancer. I rebuked it in Jesus`name and within a week she had stopped the behaviour and it`s now as if it never happened.

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TheEditor
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Re: Where have all the demons gone?

Post by TheEditor » Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:24 am

I too had a friend that was bi-polar with manic depression. He was the sweetest person you could ever meet. Until he went off his meds. While on his meds he led a productive life and was a missionary. One day, he stopped taking his meds and ended up burning down his summer cabin, and was involved in an accident where he was killed. I would recommend that no one try to "pray the insane away." There was an interesting video on youtube about the brain. A neurologist was suggesting brain scans for all people with serious behavioral issues. He said that his own nephew had serious problems, so he decided to do a brain scan on him and discovered a small tumor in the area that effects mood and behavior. It was removed and his behavioral problems resolved. Perhaps psychiatry needs to allow other disciplines to be included in diagnosing patients.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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psimmond
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Re: Where have all the demons gone?

Post by psimmond » Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:55 am

I'm open to the idea that there are creatures called demons and that these creatures might make life miserable for certain people, but the evidence does seem very slim. (I know statements like this always get the response, "That's just what the enemy wants you to believe!")

Before I moved to China I heard many stories about all of the idol worship and demonic activity in China. I never saw anything that looked like demonic activity (unless you count the wild man with blank eyes wearing a loin cloth at the train station. He was very calm and my gut tells me with proper medicine he might have been able to function in society.) I also know missionaries are known to embellish their newsletters to supporters. These embellishments aren't viewed as outright lies and they do keep the supporters back home interested enough to keep sending money. (I know this sounds bad, but I lived among various missionaries for almost seven years and the manipulative letters they sent out often bothered me.)

Clear demonic activity or exorcisms seem to happen in the middle of the jungle where no one has the ability to document them...although I would like to know more about Ian's experience--if it could be reasonably explained without demon involvement.
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dizerner
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Re: Where have all the demons gone?

Post by dizerner » Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:31 pm

The Bible teaches the primary purpose of demons is not to violently thrash people around or do highly visible supernatural stunts, but rather blind people to spiritual truth and light; as Kaiser Sozai said, "the greatest trick the devil ever pulled, was to convince the world he doesn't exist." But assuming every physical problem is demonic is certainly not Bibical.
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psimmond
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Re: Where have all the demons gone?

Post by psimmond » Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:51 pm

dizerner wrote: The Bible teaches the primary purpose of demons is not to violently thrash people around or do highly visible supernatural stunts, but rather blind people to spiritual truth and light.
This seems reasonable, but I wonder if you could give me some verses to show this, so I can look them up.
Let me boldly state the obvious. If you are not sure whether you heard directly from God, you didn’t.
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Singalphile
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Re: Where have all the demons gone?

Post by Singalphile » Thu Sep 10, 2015 7:36 am

psimmond wrote:This seems reasonable, but I wonder if you could give me some verses to show this, so I can look them up.
It would probably be pretty interesting to look up all the references to "demon(s)". I just did it now very briefly. Looks like references to "demon(s)" are mostly in the gospels. Course we'd have to look up "(evil) spirit" too and the like. Wish I could now, but gotta get to work!
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

PR
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Re: Where have all the demons gone?

Post by PR » Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:05 am

Do you not consider the work of ISIS, the 57 million abortions in the US since 1973, etc., of the devil, or demonic? It certainly isn't of God. Although God does rule Satan too.

I recently watched a TV program on the Travel channel called "Idiot Abroad." In the episode I watched, the "idiot" was traveling through India, and attended a large Hindu religious festival. Some of the religious people he encountered would have to be considered demon possessed in my opinion. I'm not even able to describe the bizarre nature of their actions.

You can watch it on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhJfZmP3i-c

Thanks,

Phil

3Resurrections
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Re: Where have all the demons gone?

Post by 3Resurrections » Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:59 pm

An interesting post. I've read all the replies, plus listened to three complete audios from the link to Steve's material about spiritual warfare. More apologies here for another lengthy comment in advance, because there is simply no way to compress scripture's content on this issue into a single paragraph. Here goes...

To put it quite bluntly, scripture gives us ample proof that Satan and the demonic realm are no longer in existence in this present New Covenant Age since AD 70's transition. Regardless of anecdotal "evidence" and "experience" to the contrary, I plant my foot on solid promises and predictions in scripture of when Satan, his demons, and every unclean spirit were to be destroyed in that first century. (And there IS a difference between fallen angels and unclean spirits. An issue for another post.) Their fate was not just to be eternally "bound", or "imprisoned in the abyss", but to be DESTROYED UTTERLY, so that they would exist no more.

The poster dwilkins above was on the right track with the quotes from Romans 16:20 - "...the God of peace will SOON CRUSH SATAN under your feet...", and from Hebrews 2:5 - "...For NOT TO ANGELS did He subject the habitable world which is to come, of which we speak." In this "habitable world" Hebrews had just been speaking of, the saints were "ABOUT TO inherit salvation" (Heb. 1:14) in the fullest sense of it with the bodily resurrection in AD 70. That New Age soon to come would no longer be under the supervision and subjection to the divine council, as robbieyoung and dwilkins have both brought out in their comments above. Neither the good members of the divine council (the "elect angels", or "the Watchers") nor its evil members (Satan the "prince of Tyre", or any of the fallen angels, such as the "prince of Persia") would have the world under subjection to them anymore after AD 70 had eliminated those conditions which had existed in OT days.

If one doesn't understand the origin and the purpose of the divine council of "gods" (lower case "g") in Psalms 82 that was commissioned to implement God's plans for the nations in OT days, then they will miss the full significance of Heb. 2:5 and many other prophetic passages. One such passage is Daniel's vision in Daniel 2:34-35 of the statue made of different metals and clay being SIMULTANEOUSLY CRUSHED into dust by the stone (Christ). That statue is a picture of the demonic members of the divine council which had worked behind the scenes WITHIN those various world empires throughout their entire history. Those members were ALL crushed to dust and destroyed "TOGETHER" in one blow by the rock, which was Christ. Since those various world empires themselves passed away at different times over the span of centuries, this SIMULTANEOUS destruction of the different metals and the clay can't possibly be referring to the empires themselves being crushed.

Daniel 2's prophecy is not the only time we see promises of the wicked demonic realm being reduced to dust. Malachi 4:3 speaks of the wicked becoming ashes under the feet of the saints in the "great and dreadful day of the Lord" that would "burn like an oven". Is not Satan called "that Wicked One" in I John 5:18? Ezekiel 28:11-19 also speaks of Satan, the anointed cherub's destruction (the divine council "prince of Tyre" who influenced the human "prince of Tyre" in Ez. 28:1-10). There, it says that Satan would be turned into ashes on the earth, and that he "SHALL NOT EXIST ANYMORE" (Ez. 28:19 LXX). This is utter, final annihilation - not simply the binding of Satan, which had been the case during the literal 1,000-year millennium of a physical temple worship system that Rev. 20 mentions. That literal 1,000-year period had lasted from Solomon's temple foundation being laid in 967 BC until AD 33 when Christ became the true foundation stone of the New Temple made of living stones. Satan's "short time" and "little season" of being loosed to deceive the nations then lasted from AD 33 until he and his demons and unclean spirits were imprisoned in Jerusalem in the fall of AD 66 to torment the inhabitants in the city's Lake of Fire until their mutual destruction in AD 70.

One might argue that angels were created as pure spirit beings with no corporeal form that can be literally burned to ashes. Not so. Paul's discussion of different types of flesh forms in I Cor. 15:39-40 mentions what he calls "celestial flesh" as opposed to the "terrestrial flesh" of creatures that inhabit the earth. Angelic beings may possess a type of flesh different from our own, but it is still flesh that can be destroyed by the fire of God burning it to ashes, as Ezekiel 28:19 predicted for Satan, the "prince of Tyre". Is not our God called a "consuming fire"? What he once created, He has every right to destroy utterly, if it has rebelled against Him (men and angels included).

The destruction of the demonic members of the divine council is also promised in Isaiah 24:21-23. The timing for their destruction in that text is the "shaking" of the earth's foundations (which "earth" is the land of Israel when God shook both heaven and earth in the AD 70 transition, as Heb. 12:26-27 predicted was "NOW" about to happen in those days). God promised to punish the "host of the high ones that are on high" (the evil angels of the divine council) "and the kings of the earth upon the earth" (which "kings of the earth" Christ spoke of as being the high priests of Israel in Matt. 17:25 ). These high priests and the evil angels would be "gathered together" and imprisoned for many days just like prisoners in a pit. After those many days, (between the fall of AD 66 and AD 70), they would all be "found wanting". In Bible lingo, that means GONE. Since there have been no Old Covenant high priests serving after they were killed in Jerusalem by the close of AD 70, Isaiah 24:21-22 proves that the evil angels shared the same fate of the high priest "kings of the earth" at the same time; the evil angels were also GONE by that time, too. Revelation 18:2 duplicates Isaiah 24's prophecy when it tells of the same imprisonment in Babylon / Jerusalem of "EVERY UNCLEAN SPIRIT" in the city. God was making a clean sweep of the entire demonic realm in the Lake of Fire that was AD 70 Jerusalem's "second death" since her first death under the Babylonians in 586 BC.

There is further proof in Isaiah 27:1 of Satan's final destruction as a continuation of Isaiah 24's apocalypse scenario. Isaiah 27:1 further predicted that "In that day, the Lord with His great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall SLAY THE DRAGON which is in the sea." This destruction of Satan, the Dragon (as Rev. 12 titles him), is included in the same context as the bodily resurrection mentioned at the end of the previous chapter 26, when "the earth shall cast out the dead". This entire passage links a bodily resurrection with the same time period that got rid of the Zadok high priesthood member "kings of the earth" for all time, as well as the demonic realm and Satan. All of which occurred in AD 70. It was a prediction of God's imminent promise in Romans 16:20 that He would SOON CRUSH SATAN under their feet.

We also see the judgment of the demonic realm pictured in Rev. 16:17. The seventh angel pours out his vial of judgment into THE AIR, and the voice from the temple in heaven announces "It is done". We know that Satan is called "the prince of the power of THE AIR" in Ephesians 2:2, and this last, 7th vial of judgment on THE AIR shows the finished destruction of Satan and his entire kingdom of evil influence by AD 70. All the written judgments of Revelation (not the unwritten ones sealed up in Rev. 10:4) were SOON to be poured out during the time that was THEN AT HAND for John's readers (Rev. 22:6,10). That means this destruction of Satan, his demons, and his evil divine council control over the "kingdoms of this world" (of Daniel's statue) changed the condition of the habitable world so that all of the world's kingdoms "are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ" (Rev. 11:15) ever since AD 70. No more system of a divine council of angels, either good or bad ones. Christ now wears ALL those MANY CROWNS (Rev. 19:12), and we, as saints having His Holy Spirit within, are now reigning with Him over the nations as His HUMAN divine council.

There's another text that prophesies the death of the evil divine council members - the "gods" - in Psalms 82:5-8. "...All the foundations of the earth shall be shaken" (as in the Isaiah 24:28 and Hebrews 12:26-27 shaking of heaven and earth as the Old Covenant Age was disappearing in the AD 70 era). "I have said ye are gods; and all of you are children of the Most High, But YE SHALL DIE LIKE MEN" (which proves this is celestial-type creatures that are the "gods" - not men), "and fall like one of the princes." (as Satan, the "prince of Tyre" in Ez. 28:11-19 was to be finally destroyed). "Arise, O God, judge the earth:" (as He did judge the land of Israel in the AD 70 days of vengeance), "for thou shalt inherit all nations." (as Christ did inherit all the kingdom powers of the world in Rev. 11:15 that had once been under Satan's divine council power until then - as Satan once boasted to Christ in Luke 4:5-6).

Jeremiah 10:10-11 also predicted the destruction of the evil divine council members - the "gods" of Psalms 82 which had become devils by accepting human worship from those nations they had been tasked with supervising. "...The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall PERISH from the earth, and from under these heavens." Jeremiah prophesied that their perishing would take place at a time of God's wrath, when the earth would tremble, and the nations would not be able to bear His indignation (i.e., AD 70's shaking of the earth mentioned again).

This is by no means an exhaustive list of references to this topic of Satan and the demons' destruction. If someone wants to look further into a discussion of these and other scripture texts related to the annihilation of the entire demonic realm in AD 70, they might want to check into the following link at one of that post's last comments: https://adammaarschalk.com/2014/04/13/j ... of-demons/

Ever since AD 70, that rock of Christ which struck Daniel's image of a man and destroyed the entire demonic divine council behind all those world empires, has been steadily growing in size so that it will one day fill the earth. God has planned incremental advance for His kingdom on earth before the final resurrection at the end of the New Covenant Age. The AD 70 destruction of the demonic realm was only one major advance in that optimistic schedule of progressive restoration. His word will NOT return unto Him void, but it will accomplish what God pleases, and prosper in what He sends it to do. (Is. 55:11). This should instill hope in anyone who lives in unsettled times.

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steve
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Re: Where have all the demons gone?

Post by steve » Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:54 am

The above post is full of speculative interpretations of various passages, presented in a dogmatic, rather than tentative, tone. This is not the desired tone of discourse in this forum. The recent post is not alone in this manner of presentation. In fact, it is quite a common one among most of the full-preterits that I read (I consider dwilkins, and possibly a few others, to be exceptions to this general criticism).

I don't mind people suggesting novel interpretations of scripture for our consideration, but when one presents such a speculative linking of ideas and texts with an air of total self-confidence, I find it difficult to respect the presenter's objectivity. I certainly would see most of the texts mentioned above in a different light—and with no less biblical credibility.

As for the demon question in the original post, and subsequent speculations, I find it sad to read how little experience so many Christians have had with dealing with such problems in afflicted people. The fact that the activities of demons in the present world can be questioned by Christians leads me to believe that a preferred theological (or, alternatively, an anti-supernaturalist) paradigm is inordinately dominating one's vision of reality. I first encountered this denial of modern demonization in the writings of reformed cessationist writers long before there were full-preterists to make similar claims. I marveled, then as now, at the seeming naiveté of such an approach.

My personal experiences, coupled with research on the topic of demon possession and deliverance in the modern world, can not be expected to override such an arbitrarily preferred theological paradigm in one who is skeptical. There was a time when such a paradigm (a different one—which asserted that demons can only possess non-Christians) had to be abandoned due to better examination of the biblical texts, and a need to more faithfully explain realities encountered in ministry.

3Resurrections
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Re: Where have all the demons gone?

Post by 3Resurrections » Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:02 pm

Hi Steve,

I hope you won't misunderstand the reason for the "tone" in which I post. I'm actually an awkward introvert, and have been all my life. But I also read verses such as "the righteous are bold as a lion", and try to act accordingly, so my Christ won't be ashamed of me. This being a website where I am out-classed educationally and out-numbered by gender, I have to write in a straightforward manner, or you gentlemen could chew me up and spit me out in a heartbeat. When my husband and I long ago left that 16-year membership in the cult-like church (whose pastor and some in the men's group approved of corporal punishment for wives to keep them cowed), I forever abandoned any obsequious, timorous style of existence. That's not the life God intended for His daughters. Besides, how will you know where I'm coming from, unless I state quite plainly what that viewpoint is? And I'm afraid the Full-Preterist camp does not welcome or accept many of the views I find in scripture (an end of the New Covenant Age, a future bodily resurrection, multiple ages of history, NOT everything fulfilled in AD 70, a literal 1,000-year millennium, a fulfilled bodily "rapture" of resurrected saints, etc., etc.)

Steve, this is what I appreciate most about the manner in which your videos and written work are presented: you walk all the way around a subject and look at it from every conceivable angle in order to analyze it. I am certainly not alone in this appreciation of your delivery style, or your books on Revelation and Hell would not have the wide range of appeal that they do. This type of thorough technique I have also tried to incorporate in my studies about eschatology and the doctrines that it connects to, such as this one about demons. It's the very reason for laying all my cards on the table in various Christian forums, across the spectrum of differing viewpoints - including yours, as long as you allow me to do so. I WANT to have my views poked at from every angle, using scripture to examine them by minds other than my own (the whole "iron sharpening iron" thing). There is literally no one in my immediate circle that can converse directly with me to challenge any errors. If the views I hold are true, they can withstand any scriptural cross-examination (no pun intended). If they are vanity, then as Gamaliel told the Jewish council, they will come to nothing, and you need not give them another thought.

You say in your videos of spiritual warfare that you have had to change your viewpoint after doing considerable contemplation on whether a believing child of God can be "demonized" (a good word choice), or if this is only possible in the case of unbelievers. Laying aside for the moment any modern-day anecdotal examples of demons out of the discussion, there ARE some scriptural examples that we can refer to as possible cases for a demonized child of God. One I have mentioned as a possibility on another website is the case of King Saul. Alternately, the Spirit of God came upon him (on at least 3 occasions) so that he prophesied. Later on, an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him. This "evil spirit" is either a sad case of irrational, paranoid behavior for Saul (possibly bi-polar issues, long before the word came into vogue), OR it was an actual evil angelic spirit that plagued the king. Presuming it WAS an evil angelic spirit, the question then arises: Was Saul actually a child of God who simply made sinful choices, and was "demonized" by an evil spirit, or was he never a child of faith at all to the day of his death?

I believe it's possible to prove that Saul WAS a child of faith in the same sense that the righteous prophet Samuel and Saul's sons were (such as the godly Jonathan). The genuine spirit of Samuel, raised at Endor to speak to the king, testified of this to King Saul on the night before Saul's death in battle: "...tomorrow shalt thou and thy sons be WITH ME". Did that only mean that King Saul and his sons could expect to die the next day? Or did it mean King Saul and his sons would be in Paradise, sharing the same condition as righteous spirits together with the godly prophet Samuel? The latter seems a strong possibility, as far as I can tell. The deduction would then be that King Saul, a child of God (although not in full obedient fellowship), could have had an "evil spirit" that on occasion "demonized" him during his life, before his spirit joined the godly prophet Samuel in Paradise.

Now, presuming this deduction WAS the case back in the OT, does that necessarily prove that the same "demonizing" of God's children of faith takes place today? Before one answers that in the affirmative, they must consider a few other questions, which you may very well have covered in the past:

#1) Has God always manifested angelic spirits (whether good or evil) in the same manner throughout history? (I believe not.)
#2) Did God ever revise His program, so to speak, in the way celestial beings have interacted with mankind? (I believe yes.)
#3) In addition, has God always manifested the Holy Spirit in the same way throughout all of history? (Not from what I read.)

I believe there are scriptural grounds to show that God has made changes in the interactions of mankind and the spirit realm over the different ages of the world. In the case of the Spirit of God, it seems that during the OT days, the Spirit alternately came unto individuals to empower them for certain tasks or ministries, (like Samson and David), and then departed at will (as David indicated was possible with his "...take not thy holy spirit from me...").

Even during Christ's earthly ministry, the Spirit was still being compared to the wind that blew wherever it desired - both coming and going (John 3:8). But there was a dividing line in time, after which Christ promised the Spirit would dwell FOREVER WITHIN the saints. As John 14:16-17 says, "And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you FOREVER; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He DWELLETH WITH YOU" (present tense back then) "and SHALL BE IN YOU" (an imminent future tense for them). Christ's departure from this world was the transition point. As John 16:7 said, "...if I go not away the Comforter will not come unto you: but if I depart, I will send Him unto you."

I believe this is probably the point in time when the believers were no longer able to be "demonized" - when the Holy Spirit began to take up CONTINUAL, PERMANENT residence WITHIN the believers after Christ's departure. There's no room for two opposing spirit-masters to inhabit a person at the same time. "No man can serve two masters." And the Holy Spirit absolutely outranks any evil spirit, so I can't see how any lesser-powered evil spirits would even have been willing to share a dwelling space in a believer with the "greater" Spirit who had permanent residence within the saints. There can't possibly be two different seals in the foreheads of the believers - only one. "What fellowship hath light with darkness?"

Those lesser-powered evil spirits were only looking for a "house" that was EMPTY - "swept and garnished", and void of the Holy Spirit's presence. And even that parable example was speaking specifically to THAT wicked generation's "LAST state", since Christ promised the Jews a 7-fold increased incidence of evil spirits more wicked than those which He had cast out in their "first state" while He was among them (Matt. 12:43-45).

Steve, you have suggested that a "no-demons-in-the-present-age" paradigm is exhibiting naivete about realities encountered in ministry. It's true I have not your own particular personal experience or research in this matter. Here's what I DO have: I have a mom diagnosed with Alzheimer's, who "turns into another woman" as my grieving father describes it. This is an almost 90-year-old couple with a lifetime of practicing their faith before me. Is she "demonized" because she has meltdowns and utters absurd accusations to my father as her mind is slowly disintegrating? No, this is unfortunately a physiological ailment of natural causes, shared by many sufferers. I strongly suspect this may be due to a combination of age and a toxic level of aluminum built up in the brain tissue, (which cause is currently being researched).

I've also had the honor of "adopting" a mentally ill, impoverished couple in the SBC church I recently left. Escorted them in and out of several psychiatric facilities and hospitals for doctor appointments, ER analysis, food banks, funerals, family visits, etc. Saw plenty of crazy going on around me in those psychiatric facilities. Hauled them everywhere over several years as they gradually got worse over time. Eventually, the husband developed paranoid, violent tendencies - the whole wild-eyed thing that you would call "demonized". He would stand in the middle of their empty street and try to direct non-existent traffic; stuff like that. Started to physically attack his roommates, his wife, for what he perceived as threats to himself. Talked about the 5th dimension all the time. Wanted me to take him back to the previous century. I suspected that much of the Lithium-laced cocktail of government-sponsored medication they kept him dosed with might have been doing more harm than good. Yet I knew this man was a believer from our earlier Bible study groups with this couple before his mind began to completely fall apart toward the end before he died in an isolated ward.

I also have had a wonderful friendship for many years with a Christian woman next door who is bi-polar. Have experienced how she acts while on (and off) her meds, and the change is radical to say the least. "A different woman - not my real wife", her husband says, but this is a chemical imbalance issue - not demonization, because it can be controlled by a combination of good nutrition and keto-dieting, and medication.

I've also heavily researched the subject of PTSD fallout for combat vets, since my son is a med-retired combat vet. The suicide rate for such is very high, as my son has personally witnessed among those who served with him during "The Surge". Are the cases of violent explosions of anger and erratic behavior in a traumatized vet a sign of being "demonized"? Not from my research into the EMDR method of healing traumatic memory, and looking at the brain scans. The brain is "fearfully and wonderfully made". It's a marvel of God's creative power that we will probably never understand to the full, whether in a functioning or malfunctioning state. I think it's a disservice to anyone with PTSD - man, woman, or child - to assume evil spirits might be involved, when the remedy with EMDR techniques is a proven, effectual means of rapidly abating those issues, without meds. Frankly, I believe every combat vet leaving the service should automatically receive this EMDR treatment before re-entering civilian life. It's that beneficial.

Mind you, I do not dismiss the value of the Christian community and intercessory prayer for any of these ailments. Since we are a tri-partite being of body, soul, and spirit, it follows that all 3 avenues should be involved to remedy a problem. Sort of like a 3-legged stool.

As to the scriptural passages that I supplied above and in the link I offered regarding the presence of demons currently (or the lack thereof), I would be honored if anyone took the time to dissect any one of them to prove a different meaning from scripture, if they think I have misinterpreted them. No obligation, of course, but as I said, I have no one in my life available to chew on these points with me. No church assembly, and the husband's health issues don't allow him to stress over any point of disagreement, so it would be a Christian service were someone able to offer a sound scriptural rebuttal for consideration.

Sorry for the length of the comment again; women never run out of words :-)

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