The Divine Counsel of YAHWEH

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robbyyoung
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The Divine Counsel of YAHWEH

Post by robbyyoung » Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:17 pm

Hello Everyone and God Bless,

For those who are interested in the spiritual warfare from Genesis to the end of the age in 70 AD, Brother Dave Curtis of The Berean Bible Church put together a fascinating study on the matter. Basically, he takes you through the Hebrew mindset and writings regarding what's going on in the Heavenly Realm. By carefully and exegetically reviewing passages we read many times over, and perhaps mistakenly inferring humans are the subject, by applying the seemingly alternative and correct interpretation of Spirit Beings, opens up a more clear and refreshing truth. I believe anyone who studies along with Brother Dave and investigates for themselves what holds weight as truth or not will be blessed in their overall understanding of the subject.

I'm sure this will foster a great discussion and help answer many questions or open us up for additional questions, either way, the study should be interesting indeed. Here are the links in their study order from 1 to 5.

When you click on this link, please begin at "Spiritual Warfare Pt 1", along the left-hand side of the website. You can then progress through the study by clicking on Pt 2 through 5. Brother Dave gives you the option to download the PDF version as you watch the video, therefore, you can take notes as you go.

http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/home.php

Here's an update to my original post. The following link is from the same Church and will aid as a prerequisite to the afore mentioned study:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EV9P_WxwM5c Enjoy!

God Bless!
Last edited by robbyyoung on Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dizerner

Re: The Divine Counsel of YAHWEH

Post by dizerner » Tue Feb 17, 2015 12:57 am

I don't think the Pseudepigrapha are inspired and he seems to. His discussion of στοιχεῖον was interesting, and although at times it can be used for spirits it's meaning seems to clearly be "basic components" just as most Greek Lexicons will tell you.

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robbyyoung
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Re: The Divine Counsel of YAHWEH

Post by robbyyoung » Tue Feb 17, 2015 4:41 am

dizerner wrote:I don't think the Pseudepigrapha are inspired and he seems to. His discussion of στοιχεῖον was interesting, and although at times it can be used for spirits it's meaning seems to clearly be "basic components" just as most Greek Lexicons will tell you.
Hi Brother dizerner,

IMHO, we cannot properly start fitting pieces of the puzzle together without first gathering ALL THE EVIDENCE pertinent to the case. The Intertestamental Period spanned about 400 years. Pseudepigrapha writing, alongside The Tanakh, was IN FACT authoritative to the point of its usage through our New Testament inspired writers testimony. Therefore, The Holy Spirit is the judge as to what we can confidently hold as inspired or authoritative in order to piece together fragmented stories that leaves us scratching our heads in confusion. It can be argued that Yeshua quoted or alluded to the Pseudepigrapha work of Enoch. Let's take a look at a small sampling of what He said in comparison with Enoch:

Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. (Mat 5:5)
The elect shall possess light, joy and peace, and they shall inherit the earth. (Enoch 5:7 {6:9})

the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the son (John 5:22)
the principal part of the judgment was assigned to him, the Son of man. (Enoch 69:27 {68:39})

shall inherit everlasting life (Mat. 19:29)
those who will inherit eternal life (Enoch 40:9 {40:9})

"Wo unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. (Luke 6:24)
Woe to you who are rich, for in your riches have you trusted; but from your riches you shall be removed. (Enoch 94:8 {93:7}).

Ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Mat. 19:28)
I will place each of them on a throne of glory (Enoch 108:12 {105:26})

Woe unto that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born. (Mat. 26:24)
Where will the habitation of sinners be . . . who have rejected the Lord of spirits. It would have been better for them, had they never been born. (Enoch 38:2 {38:2})

between us and you there is a great gulf fixed. (Luke 16:26)
by a chasm . . . [are] their souls are separated (Enoch 22: 9,11{22:10,12})

In my Father's house are many mansions (John 14:2)
In that day shall the Elect One sit upon a throne of glory, and shall choose their conditions and countless habitations. (Enoch 45:3 {45:3})

that ye may be called the children of light (John 12:36)
the good from the generation of light (Enoch 108:11 {105: 25})

the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. (John 4:14)
all the thirsty drank, and were filled with wisdom, having their habitation with the righteous, the elect, and the holy. (Enoch 48:1 {48:1})

Furthermore, we know for A FACT that Jude quoted from the Pseudepigrapha work of Enoch:

It was also about these that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “See, the Lord came with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all, and to convict everyone of all the deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”(Jude 14–15)
Behold, he comes with ten thousand holy ones to execute judgment upon all, and he will destroy all the ungodly and convict all flesh of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, and of all the arrogant and hard words which sinners have uttered against him.(1 Enoch 1:9)

The validity of Pseudepigrapha work has its merits in the Hebrew culture. We should go as far as our NT Writers allow us, to better fill-in the many blanks of the biblical story. As far as στοιχεῖον goes, context will drive the train and I believe the evidence is in favor of Brother David's conclusion thus far. His follow-on work will be to further exegete His study to strengthen or correct his findings.

God Bless!

dizerner

Re: The Divine Counsel of YAHWEH

Post by dizerner » Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:25 am

Showing similar sounding passages seems pointless to me, and certainly doesn't prove that one derives from the other, or that one proves the other inspired. I honestly don't think Christ needed to "draw from" these works to speak the spiritual truths he did, in fact someone posted the "Golden Rule" in more than a dozen religions. We have these works being quoted here and there, and they reflect the culture of the time, and that's as far as their value goes. Only the Law, the Writings, and the Prophets are said to shine the spiritual light of truth. To take those characters and then just write a made-up book based on them, does not seem like a godly thing to do.

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steve
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Re: The Divine Counsel of YAHWEH

Post by steve » Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:43 am

I agree with dizerner concerning the above-listed examples of correspondence. I have had Roman Catholic friends who provided for me several examples of what they regarded as similar correspondences between the teaching of Jesus and various apocryphal books. In every case, the correspondence was vague and general, or else both passages (the one cited from the New Testament and the one from the apocryphal books) could easily be seen to be informed by earlier Old Testament wording.

My biggest problem with accepting pseudepigraphal writings as authoritative is that the authors misrepresented their own identities from the outset of their documents. If a man will not tell the truth as to who he is, but claims to be someone more famous than himself, this does not bode well for the reliability of his other material. It certainly raises enormous doubts about the status of his work as being inspired by God.

Enoch claimed to know things about the afterlife that no man can really know without divine inspiration. Strangely, the things he described are not found in any of the earlier inspired, canonical works, but correspond in detail with the Greek mythology of the anonymous writer's day. While Jesus did employ the same imagery in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man (Luke 16:19ff), He did not teach that this was a literal scenario, any more than Paul intended to say that the Jewish tradition describing the rock that followed Israel through the wilderness was literally true (1 Cor.10:4). It seems evident that Jesus was teaching lessons altogether other than the nature of the afterlife in that parable. The stage scenery that He used, appears to have been borrowed from common Jewish folklore (derived, admittedly, from Enoch and the Greek poets).

This is no more strange than if a modern preacher, in wishing to make a point, would set up an illustration in which "a man died and approached St. Peter at the pearly gates." Such an illustration would not be intended to give canonical credit to whatever sources may have generated the folklore that people meet Peter at the pearly gates upon dying. It would simply be an example of the commonplace practice of preachers (and other communicators) employing popular imagery in a sermon illustration.

Jude also quoted from Enoch, but this does not mean that he recognized Enoch as scripture, any more than Paul, by quoting Aratus and Epimenides of Crete (Acts 17:28; Titus 1:12), meant to support the divine authority of those writings, or to say that Zeus (to whom the original cited passages refer) really exists.

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robbyyoung
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Re: The Divine Counsel of YAHWEH

Post by robbyyoung » Tue Feb 17, 2015 12:04 pm

steve wrote:Jude also quoted from Enoch, but this does not mean that he recognized Enoch as scripture, any more than Paul, by quoting Aratus and Epimenides of Crete (Acts 17:28; Titus 1:12), meant to support the divine authority of those writings, or to say that Zeus (to whom the original cited passages refer) really exists.
Hi Brother Steve,

I believe your comparison of Paul and Jude is an opinion of your own presupposition regarding what is canon or not. I believe Brother David has given a viable challenge to this canon presupposition. Jude in every way states his case as a matter of fact. The context leaves no room for an opinion that says Jude does not hold to the truth of the writings of Enoch. Furthermore, Paul, inspired man of God, in the verses you cited said these allusions were true in order to make his case. I don't see your comparison as a viable refutation, it does just the opposite, it proves a truth of a matter from the lips of inspired Men of God. Jude, upholds Enoch's written material and Paul upholds the truth of the Gospel through his assessment of behaviors at odds with the Gospel. I don't believe that you are suggesting that the 1st Century Believers only had what we see today as inspired scripture are you? Think of the many conversations between Holy Men and Prophets of that day that took place and was written, probably lost forever. We most likely have less than half of what was fully discussed and taught.

I'm going to allow for the cultural significance of "external" writings to compliment Apostolic truths, to the extent it allows, to help fill-in the blanks. I see no reason to disregard its significance, especially when supported by inspired men within the period in question. I think Brother David's work is thought provoking and fair enough to argue solutions to vague and missing data from the biblical story.

Nevertheless, we all must glean for ourselves what constitutes a reasonable argument. It's hard to be dogmatic about events that belong to a period over 2000 years old. I applaud anyone who painstakingly research history to get a more clear picture of the story using a boundary of 66 books to do so. I believe The Father is bigger than 66 books, and more than likely, our future will probably open us up to more archeological findings to support the cause for truth.

God Bless!

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