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Re: Praying for the Devil

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:20 am
by steve7150
Just a thought and maybe not compelling but Jesus said to pray for our persecutors and Satan of course is exactly that.

Re: Praying for the Devil

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:35 pm
by Paidion
People are responsible for their actions only if they have the ability to choose (free will). For how could anyone be held responsible for acts which he could not help doing? By law, even those who have killed other people are not considered responsible if they are insane.

So if Satan and his angels (demons) have lost their free will, how can they be held accountable for their evil actions?
It is my view that they still have the ability to choose. Origen (185-254 A.D.) believed Satan has free will and that he will ultimately make the choice to submit to God. He wrote, " Nothing is impossible to omnipotence; there is nothing that cannot be healed by its Maker," and "Thus multitudes of individuals and countless orders, who once were enemies, will advance and reconcile themselves to God; and so at length the last enemy will be reached..." —De Principiis

Re: Praying for the Devil

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:43 pm
by jaydam
I tend to think of Satan differently.

I suppose I see him as a spiritual animal of sorts more than a free will being. He was created by God to act how he does, and does not choose to act so, but was made so.

Just like an animal does not have free will but is subservient to its instincts, I would see Satan the same way.

It is interesting that you equate Satan to people Paidion, needing free will. Where do you get this understanding from scripture?

If one considers him an animal, then there is no harm putting him down when he has served his purpose. No free will is needed.

Re: Praying for the Devil

Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:29 pm
by remade
I agree Jaydam.

Steve, I believe Jesus was

(A) talking to disciples on planet earth
(B) referring to human persecutors.

I do not know where, nor do I see in the Bible, or in Christian history that we are to equate the race of angels/demons with the race of humanity. I think it is to be make the same error our culture today of saying the male is exactly equal in role, design, function, to the female. The truth is not. We are equal in dignity value and worth, but male and female have different roles, designations and functions. We're both human and receive salvation. That is true.

But the angelic race (fallen and elect) is not human. The author of Hebrews makes it abundantly clear that they are not equal. It would be like if our culture took it further and say if people wanted to self-identify as dogs, they could. And if we started issuing dogs driving licenses, houses, and such. It's just not a dog's world, that is not their function, that is not their role, not their design, not their created purpose.

I personally don't encourage nor intend to, or sound like I encourage a dwelling hatred of Satan and all things satanic, but I guess my point is, is neither do I personally see it healthy to waste breath, time and energy contemplating the salvation of angelic beings who we don't have nearly a grasp on for their role, design, and function as we do other species, beings, or races that we can see daily and study.

Like Jaydam was saying, it's like praying for the salvation of the dog. Do dogs go to heaven? Believe it or not theologians (John Wesley being one of them) have contemplated that. However, the Bible seems to clearly explain that Jesus is concerned solely about salvation for humanity. Whenever Satan is mentioned, it is never flattering, never in conjunction with encouragement to pray for salvation, rather to flee from Him.

I think we do injustice, and show our ignorance when we consider angels and demons the same way we consider human beings. We're talking about two different entities/races/beings here, with two different roles, and surely one is offered the gift of salvation with blood purchased on Calvary, while the other entity/race/being seems to not be, as Biblically pointed out in previous posts.

Re: Praying for the Devil

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:49 am
by Paidion
Yes, angels are are a different order of being than humans. But that doesn't mean that they are like dogs or any other animal.
God is a different order of being. He is not a dog either (though "dog" is "god" spelled backwards).

How have people been created in God's image? Certainly not in his physical image, since God is not physical but is spirit? (John 4:24). Is it not that, like God, we possess free will—the ability to choose? And why would He not create angels with free wills as well?
I know that some think God created Satan to be what he is—evil. As for me, I don't believe God created any being as evil. Everything He created, He recognized as good (Genesis 1). The early Christian interpretation of Lucifer is that he was the angel of light, created good, but who rebelled against God of his own free will, and then became "Satan" (the adversary). I subscribe to that interpretation.

Re: Praying for the Devil

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:11 am
by steve7150
He was created by God to act how he does, and does not choose to act so, but was made so.

So God tells us not to lie/murder/deceive/destroy and commit other sins but he creates an entity to do exactly that even though it is contrary to God's character?

Re: Praying for the Devil

Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:54 am
by Singalphile
I think it's a sweet sentiment for a child (or adult, I guess) to pray for (not against) the devil ... but probably misguided.

What exactly would such a prayer consist of? If he is "the adversary", whether currently detained in "the abyss" or not, then I guess a prayer for him would consist of asking that that he will no longer be an adversary (which some Christian restorationists/universalists think will happen whether or not you pray for it, anyway). I guess one could also pray that God will have some mercy on him.

Re: Praying for the Devil

Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:59 pm
by remade
Heard this passage in a sermon, and it reminded me of this topic:
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment (2 Peter 2:4 ESV)
I will make the remark that in it's context, Peter is using this as a matter-of-factly to drive the point home on something else. In other words, the primary point of his passage was not about if demons/Satan get a chance to repent, his primary point was something else. However, he seems to put out remark matter-of-factly, that is: the angels were not spared, they were cast into hell.

I think that seems to answer the point of this post. I could be wrong though.

Re: Praying for the Devil

Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:22 pm
by Paidion
But why were they cast therein only "until the judgment"?

Re: Praying for the Devil

Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:47 pm
by Homer
So how does this word of John's fit into the discussion:

1 John 5:16 (NKJV)

16. If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.

Hasn't Satan committed (and is still committing) the sin unto death? And if Satan has free will, what would we expect God to do in response to a prayer on Satan's behalf?

And why the quotations from Origen? How do his speculations settle anything?