Demons vs mental illness
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_Anonymous
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Demons vs mental illness
Steve, In your oppinion how many mentally ill people could be demon possessed. It is my belief that the many counselors laugh at the thought of demon possession. "Christian" counselors tend to scoff also. What are your thoughts. Thanks
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
The influence of and possession by demons was a much better understood phenomenon in the ancient world than it is by our modern scientific age, blinded, as we are, by anti-supernatural bigotry. Many moderns believe that what Jesus and His contemporaries regarded to be affliction by demonic spirits are now known to be perfectly natural mental disorders. I have several problems with this assumption:
1. The notion that demons do not exist and do not afflict humans is extremely provincial, and entirely theoretical. All previous ages knew (and many modern people in non-western societies still know) of the existence of demons—not through superstition, but by objective experience. Demoniacs sometimes exhibit supernatural strength, clairvoyant and mediumistic powers, the ability to speak fluently in unlearned languages, etc. These things cannot be explained by any credible theory of "mental illness." It is arrogant in the exteme for modern theorists, blinded by a narrow cultural prejudice, to pronounce on phenomena that they have never been present to observe, or, if they have observed it, which their presuppositions forbid them to take at face value.
2. Jesus, who believed that people had demons and dealt with them according to this presupposition, got far better results with His "patients" than do modern psychiatrists and psychotherapists, armed with their unproved and often contradictory theories and therapies. Jesus' success rate was 100%; psychiatry's success rate is less than 50%. Maybe Jesus knew something they don't know.
3. Every person whom Jesus delivered from demonic possession would have been labeled "psychotic" or "paranoid schizophrenic" by modern mental health professionals, which suggests that the latter are not very good at recognizing the true nature of people's problems.
The fact that some mental patients receive some relief through therapy or medication, and a tiny percentage might even seem "cured" through such means, does not disprove the demon theory. There are many troubled people whose problems are probably not demonic in nature—as in cases of brain damage, hormonal or chemical imbalance, prolonged sleep deprivation, temporary traumatic overwhelm, or even pretended or affected insanity—for which something other than "exorcism" may effect an improvement in their condition. We can't put every situation in the same category.
I do not believe in "mental illness" (as if the "mind" were an organ. like the brain, that could become diseased). The mind (or soul) is nonmaterial and is more likely to be affected my moral/spiritual factors than by "disease," as we generally understand that term. Of course, mental function can become impaired and disordered by physiological factors, like menopause, hypoglycemia or thyroid imbalance, but these are concerns of physical health, not "mental health."
Even where a physiological component is present, the influence of demons cannot always be ruled out, since the Bible knows of cases where demons caused physical problems in the patient (Matt.9:32/12:22), and we can't claim to know the limits of the demons' abilities to manipulate the physical processes of their victims' bodies.
It would be an unwise and inaccurate oversimplification to suggest that demons are responsible, in every case, for the problems of those who are diagnosed as "mentally ill," but it is certainly an option that should not be automatically ruled-out either. Exorcism of demons will not bring relief to every disturbed soul in the mental hospital, but there are, no doubt, many for whom nothing less, and nothing else, will suffice to relieve.
1. The notion that demons do not exist and do not afflict humans is extremely provincial, and entirely theoretical. All previous ages knew (and many modern people in non-western societies still know) of the existence of demons—not through superstition, but by objective experience. Demoniacs sometimes exhibit supernatural strength, clairvoyant and mediumistic powers, the ability to speak fluently in unlearned languages, etc. These things cannot be explained by any credible theory of "mental illness." It is arrogant in the exteme for modern theorists, blinded by a narrow cultural prejudice, to pronounce on phenomena that they have never been present to observe, or, if they have observed it, which their presuppositions forbid them to take at face value.
2. Jesus, who believed that people had demons and dealt with them according to this presupposition, got far better results with His "patients" than do modern psychiatrists and psychotherapists, armed with their unproved and often contradictory theories and therapies. Jesus' success rate was 100%; psychiatry's success rate is less than 50%. Maybe Jesus knew something they don't know.
3. Every person whom Jesus delivered from demonic possession would have been labeled "psychotic" or "paranoid schizophrenic" by modern mental health professionals, which suggests that the latter are not very good at recognizing the true nature of people's problems.
The fact that some mental patients receive some relief through therapy or medication, and a tiny percentage might even seem "cured" through such means, does not disprove the demon theory. There are many troubled people whose problems are probably not demonic in nature—as in cases of brain damage, hormonal or chemical imbalance, prolonged sleep deprivation, temporary traumatic overwhelm, or even pretended or affected insanity—for which something other than "exorcism" may effect an improvement in their condition. We can't put every situation in the same category.
I do not believe in "mental illness" (as if the "mind" were an organ. like the brain, that could become diseased). The mind (or soul) is nonmaterial and is more likely to be affected my moral/spiritual factors than by "disease," as we generally understand that term. Of course, mental function can become impaired and disordered by physiological factors, like menopause, hypoglycemia or thyroid imbalance, but these are concerns of physical health, not "mental health."
Even where a physiological component is present, the influence of demons cannot always be ruled out, since the Bible knows of cases where demons caused physical problems in the patient (Matt.9:32/12:22), and we can't claim to know the limits of the demons' abilities to manipulate the physical processes of their victims' bodies.
It would be an unwise and inaccurate oversimplification to suggest that demons are responsible, in every case, for the problems of those who are diagnosed as "mentally ill," but it is certainly an option that should not be automatically ruled-out either. Exorcism of demons will not bring relief to every disturbed soul in the mental hospital, but there are, no doubt, many for whom nothing less, and nothing else, will suffice to relieve.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
Misconceptions about mental illness
I too would agree that the mind, as you define it Steve, is not an organ. This brings up an interesting point about about "mental illness." No one is "Crazy", not even the "Mentally Ill." Those afflicted with mental illness have "thought" or "affective" disorders for the most part.
Thought disorders are the most tragic and taxing of the mental illnesses. Such a disorder produces false information for the sufferer. They hear voices, see things and they are so real in their thoughts, that it is hard to know who is real and what is going on. A schizophrenic can be so delusional at times that they will stop part the way through buttoning their shirt, distracted by the shrillness of their various illusions. I have great admiration for people who struggle with this affliction, they are brave beyond our capacity to know. The key thing to remember though is that they act as rationally as we do, but have bad information. Their mind however attempts to make rational decisions on the basis of the information they are presented with, just as we all do.
An affective disorder, such as Clinical Depression or Bipolar disorder (manic Depression) is a disorder of feeling. Affective disorders can become so pronounced that they induce psychosis, but unlike Schizophrenia, psychosis is a secondary, not a primary symptom. The best way I know of to describe the thought processes of a person with an affective disorder is that they too are rational, but they struggle with bad information about the importance of things. They react in a seemingly inappropriate fashion to us, laughing at the wrong time, crying at the wrong time and imagining insults where none are given. In their most extreme forms, affective disorders can produce many of the same symptoms that thought disorders produce. Still, dealing with those thoughts and feelings is carried out in the same rational way that any of us would use. The information is simply bad again.
I don't believe that demons are absent from the equation. I don't think we have demoniacs like we did in Christ's time. I base this on the sound basis I have for believing that gifts of the spirit have ceased, for now. I have a hard time believing (my humble opinion) that God could loose the devil on us in such ways, but not be around to counter that influence. If I thought this were the case, I'd say we were in the "tribulation" now.
Hugh McBryde
Thought disorders are the most tragic and taxing of the mental illnesses. Such a disorder produces false information for the sufferer. They hear voices, see things and they are so real in their thoughts, that it is hard to know who is real and what is going on. A schizophrenic can be so delusional at times that they will stop part the way through buttoning their shirt, distracted by the shrillness of their various illusions. I have great admiration for people who struggle with this affliction, they are brave beyond our capacity to know. The key thing to remember though is that they act as rationally as we do, but have bad information. Their mind however attempts to make rational decisions on the basis of the information they are presented with, just as we all do.
An affective disorder, such as Clinical Depression or Bipolar disorder (manic Depression) is a disorder of feeling. Affective disorders can become so pronounced that they induce psychosis, but unlike Schizophrenia, psychosis is a secondary, not a primary symptom. The best way I know of to describe the thought processes of a person with an affective disorder is that they too are rational, but they struggle with bad information about the importance of things. They react in a seemingly inappropriate fashion to us, laughing at the wrong time, crying at the wrong time and imagining insults where none are given. In their most extreme forms, affective disorders can produce many of the same symptoms that thought disorders produce. Still, dealing with those thoughts and feelings is carried out in the same rational way that any of us would use. The information is simply bad again.
I don't believe that demons are absent from the equation. I don't think we have demoniacs like we did in Christ's time. I base this on the sound basis I have for believing that gifts of the spirit have ceased, for now. I have a hard time believing (my humble opinion) that God could loose the devil on us in such ways, but not be around to counter that influence. If I thought this were the case, I'd say we were in the "tribulation" now.
Hugh McBryde
Last edited by mtymousie on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Hi Hugh.
You may believe that gifts of the spirit have ceased, but from my own experience, I've prayed for two people whom I believed to have demonic problems, and the people changed. Although unfortunately, one person actually got angry at me afterwards for taking away his "alternate personality."
Damon
You may believe that gifts of the spirit have ceased, but from my own experience, I've prayed for two people whom I believed to have demonic problems, and the people changed. Although unfortunately, one person actually got angry at me afterwards for taking away his "alternate personality."
Damon
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
I've yet to see it
When I have trial quality evidence for a healing, I'll believe it. This is not a lack of faith on my part but a simple belief that the evidence of such healings in Christ's time was of that quality. Those that did not believe in them and in him simply didn't want to believe. We are unable to prove healings at that level these days because those sorts of proofs don't exist.
I have a bad and painful back. There are numerous x-rays to document my condition that I was born with, if I, or someone like me was healed of that affliction by the laying on of a specific person's hands, I would believe it was genuine. Then I would believe also that Christ was close to returning, or had in fact returned.
Hugh McBryde
I have a bad and painful back. There are numerous x-rays to document my condition that I was born with, if I, or someone like me was healed of that affliction by the laying on of a specific person's hands, I would believe it was genuine. Then I would believe also that Christ was close to returning, or had in fact returned.
Hugh McBryde
Last edited by mtymousie on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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_Anonymous
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I was born with a spine that is crooked, scolosis....
I believe GOD CAN heal it and infact after many prayers
he has helped me so much... No, I am not totally healed, yet....
I have relinquished all to him yet believe he does heal today
my question is, Will he?
God is the same yesterday, today and FOREVER
I believe GOD CAN heal it and infact after many prayers
he has helped me so much... No, I am not totally healed, yet....
I have relinquished all to him yet believe he does heal today
my question is, Will he?
God is the same yesterday, today and FOREVER
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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We have the same condition
My spine looks like a spiral staircase.
Last edited by mtymousie on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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I'm sorry to hear about your spine.
Several years ago when I was still in college, right around Spring Break, I had gotten seriously stressed out to the point of developing an ulcer. At the time, I didn't know what to do about it because I didn't have much money. I remember waking up at 4:30 in the morning with terrible stomach pains from the ulcer. I didn't have any medicine to take or even any food (even milk!) to take to calm my stomach temporarily. So I prayed that God would heal the ulcer and He did. I even had a hamburger for dinner that evening.
I got another ulcer in my next year in college and that time God didn't heal it, but I still remember that one time that He did.
Damon
Several years ago when I was still in college, right around Spring Break, I had gotten seriously stressed out to the point of developing an ulcer. At the time, I didn't know what to do about it because I didn't have much money. I remember waking up at 4:30 in the morning with terrible stomach pains from the ulcer. I didn't have any medicine to take or even any food (even milk!) to take to calm my stomach temporarily. So I prayed that God would heal the ulcer and He did. I even had a hamburger for dinner that evening.
I got another ulcer in my next year in college and that time God didn't heal it, but I still remember that one time that He did.
Damon
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Hi Hugh,
Like many (but not all) at this forum, I believe in the continuing existence of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, not only in the last days, but throughout the church age, including today.
My reasons are not based on having seen many verifiable miracles—because I have seen either few or none of those. But most of the gifts of the Spirit are not in themselves evidently miraculous, and the ones that are seem to be very rare (apart from the ministries of the apostles) even in the book of Acts.
My belief in the contiunuing existence of the gifts is based, first on my understanding of verses like 1 Corinthians 1:7; 13:8-12 and Ephesians 4:11-13, which speak of the purpose of the gifts, and how long we can expect to have them around.
I am interested in seeing alternative exegeses of these passages, or others that point to a different conclusion. One question I would have is, if the gifts ceased at some time after the book of Acts, when, precisely did that happen? The church fathers in the second and third century seemed to believe that there were still authentic prophets and healings among them, and I don't know of any logical or scriptural "cut-off" point for God to remove them from the church.
I believe that the work of God is not yet complete through His church, and His work must be done in His power, not human power. It would seem not only tragic, but also ill-advised, for God to disempower His church long before their work was done.
I also see no biblical warrant for doubting the continuing phenomenon of demonization, and would have great difficulty explaining the "Book-of-Acts-type" exorcisms that have characterized so many of the experiences to which missionaries in pagan lands attest, if this diagnosis were not an option.
One once-skeptical Presbyterian missionary, John Nevius, became convinced by his experiences in 19th-century China, that he had no biblical reason to doubt this phenomenon, and no alternative biblical explanation of the cases he encountered. After doing extensive field research among missionaries in China and India, he published a very sober and responsible analysis (still in print), entitled, "Demon Possession." It is one of many books by missionaries that seriously challenge any thesis of the cessation of daimonizomai in post-apostolic times.
Another eye-opener from the 19th century is the account of Pastor Johann Christoph Blumhardt, a Reformed/Lutheran pastor in a small German village, who dealt with an afflicted woman in his parish for about two years. Such astonishing phenomena occurred with her that he always took a medical doctor and the town mayor with him to witness his visits with her.
The details of this extended ministry are the most amazing and convincing proof of modern demonization I have read to date. Blumhardt, against his wishes, became interenationally famous in Europe near the end of the 19th century due to the wide publicity this shocking encounter produced. Among the less-extraordinary occurrances associated with this woman's case were ther following: multiple voices would speak from her mouth, in various non-European languages (though she was a poor, uneducated peasant). She would go into trances, in which she had clairvoyant powers. She would sit in the middle of her room, with blood pouring out of her ears, eyes, nose and mouth simultaneously...it gets worse!
I will spare the gorier details, but, suffice it to say, there was genuine supernatural stuff happening. Pastor Blumhardt, for his part was not a sensationalist in the least. He despised the publicity, and often felt that he was out of his depth in dealing with this bizarre case. However, in the end of two years, a loud voice screamed from her mouth, "Jesus is Victor!" and the girl was fully and permanently delivered. For many years afterward, she served the pastor's family as a nanny, and never relapsed.
Now, if the Bible told me that demonization no longer could be encountered in modern times, I would feel compelled to find some non-supernatural explanation for "Blumhardt's Battle" (as it came to be called. The detailed account that he wrote to the officials in his denomination was eventually published under that title). But since the Bible gives no reason for us to think such phenomena to have ceased, it seems that this story, and others similar to it, can be taken at face value as striking instances of demonization in modern times.
Interested in your thoughts on this.
Like many (but not all) at this forum, I believe in the continuing existence of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, not only in the last days, but throughout the church age, including today.
My reasons are not based on having seen many verifiable miracles—because I have seen either few or none of those. But most of the gifts of the Spirit are not in themselves evidently miraculous, and the ones that are seem to be very rare (apart from the ministries of the apostles) even in the book of Acts.
My belief in the contiunuing existence of the gifts is based, first on my understanding of verses like 1 Corinthians 1:7; 13:8-12 and Ephesians 4:11-13, which speak of the purpose of the gifts, and how long we can expect to have them around.
I am interested in seeing alternative exegeses of these passages, or others that point to a different conclusion. One question I would have is, if the gifts ceased at some time after the book of Acts, when, precisely did that happen? The church fathers in the second and third century seemed to believe that there were still authentic prophets and healings among them, and I don't know of any logical or scriptural "cut-off" point for God to remove them from the church.
I believe that the work of God is not yet complete through His church, and His work must be done in His power, not human power. It would seem not only tragic, but also ill-advised, for God to disempower His church long before their work was done.
I also see no biblical warrant for doubting the continuing phenomenon of demonization, and would have great difficulty explaining the "Book-of-Acts-type" exorcisms that have characterized so many of the experiences to which missionaries in pagan lands attest, if this diagnosis were not an option.
One once-skeptical Presbyterian missionary, John Nevius, became convinced by his experiences in 19th-century China, that he had no biblical reason to doubt this phenomenon, and no alternative biblical explanation of the cases he encountered. After doing extensive field research among missionaries in China and India, he published a very sober and responsible analysis (still in print), entitled, "Demon Possession." It is one of many books by missionaries that seriously challenge any thesis of the cessation of daimonizomai in post-apostolic times.
Another eye-opener from the 19th century is the account of Pastor Johann Christoph Blumhardt, a Reformed/Lutheran pastor in a small German village, who dealt with an afflicted woman in his parish for about two years. Such astonishing phenomena occurred with her that he always took a medical doctor and the town mayor with him to witness his visits with her.
The details of this extended ministry are the most amazing and convincing proof of modern demonization I have read to date. Blumhardt, against his wishes, became interenationally famous in Europe near the end of the 19th century due to the wide publicity this shocking encounter produced. Among the less-extraordinary occurrances associated with this woman's case were ther following: multiple voices would speak from her mouth, in various non-European languages (though she was a poor, uneducated peasant). She would go into trances, in which she had clairvoyant powers. She would sit in the middle of her room, with blood pouring out of her ears, eyes, nose and mouth simultaneously...it gets worse!
I will spare the gorier details, but, suffice it to say, there was genuine supernatural stuff happening. Pastor Blumhardt, for his part was not a sensationalist in the least. He despised the publicity, and often felt that he was out of his depth in dealing with this bizarre case. However, in the end of two years, a loud voice screamed from her mouth, "Jesus is Victor!" and the girl was fully and permanently delivered. For many years afterward, she served the pastor's family as a nanny, and never relapsed.
Now, if the Bible told me that demonization no longer could be encountered in modern times, I would feel compelled to find some non-supernatural explanation for "Blumhardt's Battle" (as it came to be called. The detailed account that he wrote to the officials in his denomination was eventually published under that title). But since the Bible gives no reason for us to think such phenomena to have ceased, it seems that this story, and others similar to it, can be taken at face value as striking instances of demonization in modern times.
Interested in your thoughts on this.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
Benny Hinn didn't do it though
I had migraines. Severe migraines cause you to wonder if it's worth living. I prayed that they be removed sincerely and urgently to the Lord. After a time they were, but I didn't notice for a year that they were gone. I praised the Lord for that freedom and I have been free from them ever since. This type of healing does occur, but I have seen no example of it as a gift that one man or woman preforms for God on another man or woman.Damon wrote:"I prayed that God would heal the ulcer and He did. I even had a hamburger for dinner that evening. I got another ulcer in my next year in college and that time God didn't heal it, but I still remember that one time that He did."
My thoughts are that genuine healers would go to emergency rooms and psychiatric hospitals and relieve the suffering. It's not a matter of a lack of faith on the part of the afflicted though there are some that are faithless. Matthew 9:6,Steve wrote:"Interested in your thoughts on this."
I probably should start another thread on this topic. Would you be interested?"But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house."
Hugh McBryde
Last edited by mtymousie on Wed May 11, 2005 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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