Was satan once a holy angel?

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Was satan once a holy angel?

Post by _Anonymous » Wed Feb 18, 2004 2:54 am

Steve,

Although I’m sure I cannot imagine how busy you are, I have a favor to ask you. My dear friend and teammate Dave and I got into quite a long disagreement tonight. We were discussing the “Origin of Satan.” He was shocked and dismayed that I could believe that God created Satan as Satan from the beginning and not as an archangel who eventually fell from heaven because of his own pride, etc. I’ve also directed Dave to download the MP3 files on this topic as well, but he sent me the following email that I’d like you to respond to if you can. As you can tell from the information of his email below, I’m not nearly knowledgeable enough of Church history to give my own response. I made it very clear that you nor I are “Augustinian”! Could you respond to his email? Thank you so much Steve! May the Holy Spirit lead us into all Truth!

From Dave:
Below you will find the result of an exhaustive set of the earliest references to the Fall of Satan in the Church. No other commentary was expressed in the first 300 years. I want to tell you that I can now see exactly where the view of God creating Satan evil comes from – Augustinianism. I am confident that if I look at Calvin and or other Augustinians (i.e. Luther) I would expect to find the perspective you articulated expressed.

At this point, I will go with Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen and Justin Martyr over and above Steve Gregg and whoever else might share his view – I’m in good company.

The apostate angel, having caused the disobedience of mankind by means of the serpent, imagined that he escaped the notice of the Lord. As a result, God assigned him the form and name [of a serpent]. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.462.

From this we learn that this was the apostate angel and the enemy. For he was envious of God's workmanship and took in hand to render this workmanship into something at enmity with God. For this reason, too, God has banished from His presence the one who of his own accord stealthily sowed the tares. I am referring to the one who brought about the transgression. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.524.

The devil was one of those angels who are placed over the spirit of the air. ...However, becoming envious of man, he was rendered an apostate from the divine law. ...The Word of God, however, the Maker of all things, conquered him by means of human nature. So, showing him to be an apostate, Christ has, on the contrary, put him under the power of man. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.553.

From where did this malice of lying and deceit towards man—and slandering of God—originate? Most certainly not from God! For He made the angel good after the fashion of His good works. Indeed, before he became the devil, he stood forth as the wisest of creatures. And wisdom is no evil. If you turn to the prophecy of Ezekiel, you will at once realize that this angel was good by creation. It was by choice that he became corrupt. For in the person of the prince of Tyre, it says things in reference to the devil. Tertullian (c. 207, W), 3.305.

Regarding the devil, his angels, and the opposing forces, the teaching of the Church is that these beings do indeed exist. However, the Church has not explained with sufficient clarity what they are, or how they exist. Most Christians, however, hold this opinion: that the devil was an angel and that, having become an apostate, he induced as many of the angels as possible to fall away with him. Origen (c. 225, E), 4.240.

We find in the prophet Ezekiel two prophecies written to the king of Tyre. ...The second is clearly of such a kind that it cannot be at all understood about a man. It must refer to some superior power who had fallen away from a higher position and had been reduced to a lower and worse condition. I will take from it an illustration by which it may be demonstrated with the utmost clearness that those opposing and malignant spiritual powers were not formed or created so by nature. Rather, they fell from a better to a worse position and were converted into wicked beings. ...Now, who could be supposed to be stainless from the very day of his creation? Of whom could it be said that wickedness was only afterwards discovered in him? Must this not be said of him who was cast forth upon the earth? ...I have shown, then, that what we have quoted regarding the king of Tyre from the prophet Ezekiel refers to an adverse power. And from this, it is most clearly proved that this power was formerly holy and happy. Origen (c. 225, E), 4.259.

“From the day when you were created with the cherubim, I placed you in the holy mountain of God.” Who could so water down the meaning of this passage so as to suppose that this language was referring to some man or saint—not to mention the prince of Tyre? Who could imagine that any man could live in the midst of fiery stones? Who could be supposed to be stainless from the very day of his creation, wickedness only being discovered in him at a later time? No, this must be said of someone who was cast down to the earth? ...I have shown, then, that what I have quoted concerning the prince of Tyre from the prophet Ezekiel refers to an adverse power. And it clearly shows that this power was once holy and happy. Yet, he fell from this state of happiness from the time that evil was found in him. So he was hurled to the earth. Yet, [this evil] was not in him by nature or by creation. I am of the opinion that these words are spoken of a certain angel who had received the office of governing the nation of Tyre. Origen (c. 225, E), 4.259.

He compares [Satan] to lightning and says that he fell from heaven. He shows by this that Satan had at one time been in heaven and had enjoyed a place among the saints. He had enjoyed a portion of that light in which all the saints participate, by which they are made angels of light. Origen (c. 225, E), 4.259.

In the prophecies of Ezekiel, the prince of Tyre is shown unmistakenly to be a type of spiritual power. Origen (c. 225, E), 4.335.

What is said about the ruler of Tyre cannot be understood of a certain man who ruled over Tyre. Origen (c. 225, E), 4.372.

“Behold a red dragon, having seven heads.” Now, that he says that this dragon was of a red color,...it was the result of his works that give him such a color. For, from the beginning, he was a murderer. And he has oppressed the entire human race. ...He seduced the third part of the angels who were subject to him, for he was still a ruler when he descended from his estate. ...He approached Jesus to tempt Him as man. But when he found that Jesus was not what he thought Him to be, he departed from Him. Victorinus (c. 280, W), 7.355.

God made another being, in whom the disposition of the divine origin did not remain. Therefore, he was infected with his own envy, as with poison. So he passed from good to evil. Through his own will, which had been given to him by God unfettered, he acquired for himself a contrary name. From this, it appears that the source of all evils is envy. For he envied his predecessor [i.e., the Son], who through His steadfastness is acceptable and dear to God the Father. This person, who from good became evil by his own act, is called by the Greeks diabolos [i.e., slanderer]. We call him the Accuser, for he reports to God the faults to which he himself entices us. Lactantius (c. 304-313, W), 7.52,53.

Certain of the angels, refusing to submit themselves to the commandment of God, resisted his will. And one of them indeed fell like a flash of lightning upon the earth. ...And that angel who was cast down to earth, finding no further admittance into any of the regions of heaven, now flaunts about among men, deceiving them and luring them to become transgressors like himself. Even to this day, he is an adversary to the commandments of God. ...For this reason, he has also obtained the name of “devil,” because he has passed over from the heavenly places and appeared on earth as the disparager of God's commandment. Disputation of Archelaus and Manes (c. 320, E), 6.205.

Concerning another opposing power, we are taught the following by the prophet Isaiah: The prophet says, “How is Lucifer, who used to arise in the morning, fallen from heaven!” ...Most evidently by these words a being is shown to have fallen from heaven—he who formerly was Lucifer, and who used to arise in the morning. For if he originally had a nature of darkness (as some think), how is it said that Lucifer existed this way before? Or how could he arise in the morning—if he had in himself nothing of the light? Nay, even the Savior Himself teaches us, saying of the devil, “Behold, I see Satan fallen from heaven like lightning.” For at one time he was light. Origen (c. 225, E), 4.259.

Lucifer, star of the morning, fell from heaven to be warred against and destroyed by Jesus. Origen (c. 228, E), 10.304.

Angels sinned and revolted from God. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.238.

An example of this are the angels, who renounced the beauty of God for a beauty that fades, and so fell from heaven to earth. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.274.

By our sacred books, we are instructed how from certain angels, who fell of their own free will, there sprang an even more wicked demon brood. Tertullian (c. 197, W), 3.36.
A Friend
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Post by _Steve » Wed Feb 18, 2004 2:56 am

Friend,

Instead of my writing directly to Dave, with whom I am not acquainted, I will send my reply to you and let you pass it along to him if you wish. He is free to write to me directly, and I will respond to him, if he wishes.

In my lectures, I make it plain that the tradition of associating Satan with "Lucifer" (Isa.14:12) and with the "King of Tyre" (Ezek.28:12ff), goes back at least as far as Tertullian (and possibly to the rabbis of pre-Christian times), and that all the fathers since then have seemed to follow this idea. Therefore, the quotations given above from the church fathers simply confirm what I have myself stated in my teaching. However, I am not a teacher of patristics, nor an adherent to the Roman Catholic view of the placing of tradition on a par with Scripture. I am merely a simple Bible teacher, whose task is to teach what the Bible says...not what any number of people may claim that it says. Anyone listening to my teaching on this knows that I do not take a firm stand on either view of the origin of Satan. If someone asks me whether Satan is a fallen angel, my response is, "How should I know? The Bible says nothing about it, and where else would I look to find authoritative information on the subject?"

An unembellished summary of the biblical data is as follows:

1. Jesus and John both tell us that Satan was evil "from the beginning" (John 8:44/1 John 3:8)

2. Proverbs tells us that God made everything for Himself...even the wicked for the day of doom (16:4)

3. These verses may or may not be addressing the origin of Satan, but if they are, they suggest that God may have created Satan as a divinely-appointed "tester" (the literal meaning of "tempter"), to test His people's loyalty (as He said He would test Israel with false prophets--Deut.13:1-4).

4. The fact that God has tolerated the presence of Satan up till now demonstrates at least one indisputable fact: God has use for him, or else He would have chucked him into the lake of fire before now. If God has use for a devil, would He not be entitled to create one for His purpose?

5. Though the Bible attests that some angels have fallen (2 Pet.2:4/Jude 6), yet no scripture anywhere ever says that Satan is or was himself an angel.

6.In the poetic language of Ezekiel (which never mentions Satan), the king of Tyre is said to have been a cherub in the garden of Eden (28:13-14). But then, in the poetic language of the same prophet, the Assyrian is said to have been a tree in the garden of Eden (31:3, 9)! Why take one passage more literally than the other?

7. A few verses earlier than the disputed passage (v.2), the ruler of Tyre is specifically said to be a "man" (not an angel). The statements that the king of Tyre is "full of wisdom," "perfect in beauty" and "perfect in all thy ways" are hyperboles, which have been used earlier in the book about the city of Tyre itself (27:3, 28:3). This "king of Tyre" was corrupted by "trading" or "merchandise" (v.16), a distinctive of the city of Tyre, but hardly fitting any reasonable scenario of the activities of an unfallen angel in heaven!

8. Similarly, "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12) is clearly identified as the "king of Babylon" (Isa.14:4) and as a "man" (v.16). The lofty ambitions of "Lucifer" are exactly those of the builders of the Tower of Babel (the origins of Babylon). Lucifer is nowhere identified with Satan in the scriptures.

9. That Satan was seen by Christ falling "like lightening from heaven" (Luke 10:18) does not tell us anything about Satan's origin. Jesus did not state a timeframe for what He saw, and might well have been seeing prophetically the downfall of Satan which He later mentions in John 12:31, and which John depicts in Revelation 12:9---both of which apparently were fulfilled at the cross (cf. Col.2:15/Heb.2:14).

10. None can doubt the devil's ability to "be transformed into an angel of light" (2 Cor.11:14), but this tells us no more about his actual nature than we can learn about the actual character of his ministers from the fact that they "are transformed into ministers of righteousness" (ibid. v.15).

In the final analysis, Dave is right in saying that his agreement with Irenaeus and Tertullian puts him in good company. In fact, he is in the excellent company of (probably) 95% of Christians who have lived over the past 2000 years. Those who believe in infant baptism are also in the same good company, though the Bible nowhere teaches that doctrine. I hope you will not be in too much trouble by being in company with me. Those who insist upon saying only what the Bible says are frequently persecuted by the defenders of venerable traditions. I guess each of us must decide which company we wish to be in. I choose to be in the company of all believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, but since all believers do not hold the same views on every subject, when it comes to espousing a view on any particular topic, I will prefer the company of the biblical authors.

I think Dave is mistaken in identifying the nontraditional view with Augustine. Though I have never read Augustine on this subject, I am quite sure that he also held to the traditional view of the fall of Satan. But then, Augustine taught many things that I am pleased to disagree with. Nonetheless, I expect to fellowship with him in heaven.

My concern about the traditional view is that it attributes to Satan great positive traits and excellence that is never attributed to him in Scripture. The Bible does not flatter Satan, though many Christians do so in their preaching. I have heard many Christians say, "The devil is the most beautiful, intelligent creature God created!" Satan must love to hear this flattery from the mouth of Christians! I think Satan receives enough accolades from unbelievers...he doesn't need any from the followers of Jesus Christ.

I hope these observations may be helpful.

Your friend in Jesus,
Steve
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Post by __id_2247 » Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:02 am

I believe Lucifer was the name before his death spiritually.
after his spiritual death , he became known as satan.

I do not believe GOD ever Created any evil person ever. But does use them for HIS purpose.

His purpose to me ? Was to have children , tried and tested children!

I also think, satan cannot hurt GOD , so he hurts those GOD loves!

he hates mankind and counts them nothing but trash!
he fears the least christain, knowing we have power over him!

Just as we become new creatures. he to became a new evil spiritual being!
but he became worse as we become righteous.

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

We have the Spirit of Truth to teach us understanding.
But, i know in most cases? men lean to there understanding ?
which can never give full truth!
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Post by _PAULESPINO » Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:09 pm

Thanks Steve for that enlightenment!!!!!!!!!
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Post by _Derek » Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:17 pm

Hi spirit1st,
I believe Lucifer was the name before his death spiritually.
after his spiritual death , he became known as satan.
Where does the bible identify the devil being "Lucifer"? The only passage that uses that word, identifies "lucifer" as the "king of Babylon"

Isa 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

Where does it speak of his "spiritual death"?


God bless,
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Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7

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Post by __id_2247 » Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:47 pm

it does not say it clearly!

Eze 28:3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
Eze 28:4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
Eze 28:5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffic hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
Eze 28:6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
Eze 28:7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

This shows this being was made PERFECT , Which would be sinless!

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Here is the problem with all scriptures?

Our minds cannot reveal all truth to us! WE need the HOLY GHOST to teach us. He alone can give understanding of the bible!

Now i fully understand most people want to rely on there understanding or books by others for truth and understanding and we cannot take out the HOLY GHOST and give HIm to others and force them to HEAR HIM?


Personally? I think we should not take anyones words as truth , unless the spirit of truth comfirms it in our hearts [spirits]
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Post by _PAULESPINO » Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:41 pm

Hello Spirit1st,
Personally? I think we should not take anyones words as truth , unless the spirit of truth comfirms it in our hearts [spirits]
What if the author of the book has been inspired by the Holy Ghost to write a book. Are we going to say that he is teaching false doctrines even if his teachings agree the teachings in the bible.
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Post by _anothersteve » Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:29 pm

spirit1st wrote:
I believe Lucifer was the name before his death spiritually.
after his spiritual death , he became known as satan.
Hi spirit1st,

As far as I know lucifer is not actually a name at all. It's a descrition meaning something along the lines of "morning star" or "daystar".

It's my understanding that "lucifer" is a latin word that was utranslated by the KJV translaters. Modern Bible translations have translated it into English.

The Latin Vulgate (an early translation of the Bible into Latin by Jerome) actually contains the word lucifer in, what many believe to be, a description of Jesus.

Here's the English:

2Pe 1:19 And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts,

Here's the Latin:

2Pe 1:19 et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem cui bene facitis adtendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies inlucescat et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris

Even if this is not describing Jesus, why would it refer to lucifer rising in our hearts?

Therefore, I don't see lucifer as a proper name but rather a descriptive latin word that was left untranslated in the KJV.

There's my 2 cents.

Peace
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Post by _Derek » Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:21 pm

Hi Hi spirit1st,

I think that reading this passage in it's context, will answer who it is speaking of.

Eze 28:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
Eze 28:3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
Eze 28:4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
Eze 28:5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
Eze 28:6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
Eze 28:7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

This shows this being was made PERFECT , Which would be sinless!
I think that this is hyperbole, and is characteristic of this book of the bible. It may even be sarcasim.

One things is for sure. There is no mention of the devil here.
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Did you read Steve's comments on this passage in his post above. He pointed out that:
<b>Steve:</b> The statements that the king of Tyre is "full of wisdom," "perfect in beauty" and "perfect in all thy ways" are hyperboles, which have been used earlier in the book about the city of Tyre itself (27:3, 28:3). This "king of Tyre" was corrupted by "trading" or "merchandise" (v.16), a distinctive of the city of Tyre, but hardly fitting any reasonable scenario of the activities of an unfallen angel in heaven!
Here's 27:3, and 28:3:

ze 27:3 And say unto Tyrus, O thou that art situate at the entry of the sea, which art a merchant of the people for many isles, Thus saith the Lord GOD; O Tyrus, thou hast said, I am of perfect beauty.

Eze 28:3 Behold, thou [the king of Tyre; vs.2] art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:

What are your thoughts on Steve's commentary, and these verses?
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
This verse is speaking of the devil. But it does not have anything to do with the Ezekiel passage, that I can see. This verse says that he's a dragon, as well as a serpent. I am sure that he is not both. I do not think that this is meant to be taken literally. While it does say that he is a serpent and a dragon, it doesn't say that he's an angel.
Our minds cannot reveal all truth to us! WE need the HOLY GHOST to teach us. He alone can give understanding of the bible!
I agree. Amen. But don't you think that we should take into consideration the context of a given passage? If I feel that the Spirit is saying something to me, and it doesn't add up with the words He inspired, I know that I am not seeing something correctly. Either my interpretation of a given passage is incorrect. Or the Spirit is not saying what I think. He does not contradict Himself.

God bless,
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Post by __id_2247 » Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:07 am

I know it might appear a cop out? But, No I do not agree we must see all things clearly in scripture? And of course there are many scriptures where we can judge different ways?
Paul had no bible to go by? The old testament does not agree with , the NEW!
Paul only had the HOLY GHOST to teach and guide him as well as the other writers of the New Testament!

Of course this has led to many different thoughts by many on earth. Each thinking they have the truth of scriptures. but few will cause the new testament and the old fall into place to make one clear picture!

of course, i think the main factor in our learning is the Spirit of Truth and not mankind or the greek or hebrew, As i do not think we have the correct meaning of many or i should say , all words from 2000 or so years ago or even the old testament !
This causes much misunderstanding i believe?
As i see with the greek? Many words can be accepted or tossed aside ? depending on the persons prospective at the time of reading???

I do not expect others to think as i do? I really think all should seach the scriptures them selfs and not lean to any others for there accepting of Truth and the correct understanding of that Truth?

The bond with christains is of course the Cross and JESUS CHRIST!
That is not to say, that all who believe in the gospel of JESUS CHRIST is a christain. as i know a christain is BORN OF GOD and there for Christ like!l
Not outwardly but spiritually !
They can be mature inn the LORd, which is outwardly thinking like our LORD. Or carnally minded outwardly and much harder to see as a child of GOD?
That is not to say? We cannot teach each other? But, We should Never accept anything as Truth without the HOLY GHOST comfirming in our hearts , That what we have accepted as Truth is Truth!

Other wise? We will just be as many others on earth? Following other men or women , instead of following our LORD and MASTER!

I do think it is amazing how each of us can look at scriptures and see them so much differently?
I doubt there are two on this site which see all things the same?

Which I would not count that as evil. But a chance to see things differently , And be able to judge , hopefully by the Spirit of Truth?

i do know, it is very hard for us to trust in something we cannot see for Truth and understanding?
I guess this is living by faith and not by our understanding?
personally . I think the HOLY GHOST waits 24/7 for us to ask! And there is nothing He will not teach us of Heaven [new jerusalem] or earth!





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