"Until the TIMES of the Gentiles shall be fulfilled.&qu

[Guest]

Never before was an ancient nation destroyed,it's people dispersed to the ends of the earth and for centuries remain a separate and distinct people. Then for that people to be regathered to it's ancient homeland and reborn as a nation after 2,000 years is a miracle. The question is whether it is a divine miracle.
In Lev 26 after speaking of the possible blessings ,God warned "And if you will not yet for these things hearken unto Me, then i will chastise you 7 times more for your sins."
In verses 21 & 24 God repeats the same threat of 7 times punishment for sin. But what does the term "times" mean?
There is a parallel in Israel's punishment and Nebuchadezzar's madness as both involve 7 times. The Lord punished Neb with madness 7 literal years for his pride and failure to acknowledge His sovereignty. Dan 4.16,23,25,32.
Ezekial 4.6 is found the basis for figuring time:"forty days , EACH DAY FOR A YEAR, have i appointed it unto thee."
The day for a year is found also in the Daniel 9.26 prophecy of the 70 weeks which are interpreted as 490 years. Some use 360 day years and some use 365 day years in interpreting this prophecy.
So using the formula of "times" equaling 360 days and a day for a year ratio we get to 7 times 360 years or 2520 years or 7x365=2,555 years.
The last king of Israel was Zedekiah(Ezek 21.25-27). In 606BC Zedekiah was dethroned by King Neb. From that time until 1948 Israel continued to be a subject people vassals to whatever nation controlled Israel and in 70AD they were scattered throughout the world. 606BC plus 2,520 years comes to 1914 or 606BC plus 2,555 years comes to 1949 but depending on the exact dates could be 1948.
There are many prophecies that foretell about the restoration of Israel but are they all referring to the jews return from Babylon or is there a "last days" fulfillment.
I'll be back soon to list some of the prophecies about Israel's restoration and the reader can decide.

[Guest]

The day for a year is found also in the Daniel 9.26 prophecy of the 70 weeks which are interpreted as 490 years. Some use 360 day years and some
Sorry the Dan 9.26 prophecy was a week for a year not a day therefore this prophecy rests on the Ezekial statement.

[Guest]

I understand the punishment to be the dispersion to Babylon for 70 years. The 7 times more is what happends if they didn't repent and turn to the Lord. This is what happened. God proclaimed it in Daniel 9.

Dan 9:2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

When the Angel came to Daniel, the pronouncement was 70 sevens were decreed! This was the 70 years x 7 God warned about. 69 "weeks" is the time that passed until Messiah the Prince came to fulfil the requirements man did not. While they did go back to their land after Babylon, it was never the same, they were never at rest and were still captive to sin and war.

The 1948 return was not commanded by God like the Babylonian return. Problems are: How do we know they (modern Jews) are even Jewish by blood? Why did they go back? To obey God? Are they obeying God by rejecting Jesus? Was the land unconditionally given? To Who?

The list is nearly endless.

[Guest]

The 1948 return was not commanded by God like the Babylonian return. Problems are: How do we know they (modern Jews) are even Jewish by blood? Why did they go back? To obey God? Are they obeying God by rejecting Jesus? Was the land unconditionally given? To Who
Jews instinctually know they are jewish even if they are atheists and they have a built in instinct to retain that identity.
They don't know why they went back only that they had a strong desire. Most who went back and still return are'nt doing it to consciencely obey God. Not only do most jews reject Christ but the cross is an offense to them ,so much so that the plus sign in math is not used in Israel because it looks like a cross. This may have nothing to do with the land promise in Genesis because in Joshua it seems to indicate that it was fulfilled.
I'm going to list some of the prophecies relating to this and let's see if the Babylon return fulfilled them.
This whole thing is not really about the jews but really about how God may have chosen to reveal himself soon.

[Guest]

Jews instinctually know they are jewish even if they are atheists and they have a built in instinct to retain that identity.
They don't know why they went back only that they had a strong desire. Most who went back and still return are'nt doing it to consciencely obey God.

But the point is, the Jews haven't returned to Israel. There are more Jews that live away from Israel than live in Israel. This applies both now and during the Babylonian exhile. There were Jews dispersed back then that never returned. They knew they were Jews but didn't care at all for going back to "the land".

Some people have gone to present day Israel, some people see this as a fulfilment of Bible prophecy but they can't seem to find the prediction.

The next problem is that not only are Jews not pouring into Israel today, there are many leaving because they are getting blown up on a regular basis and live in constant fear of attack (just as God said they would if they turned from Him). They have no assurance from God that they will live in peace because they would have to actaully obey God for this to be so. This would mean accepting Christ, which they are able to do, even in this present age as Paul says in Romans 11:1 & 11:14.

And finally, a Jew is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly (Rom 2:28-29). Even Jesus called unbelieving Jews sons of thier father the devil (John 8:44) and of those who claim they are Jews but are not (Revelation 2:9 & 3:9).

So I don't see how people who Jesus and Paul say are not really Jews can be gathered to a land that is not really theirs because the promises to Abraham were made to him and Jesus (Gal 3:16) and those who belong to Christ (Gal 3:29). No provision is made for unbelieving Jews. If they reject Christ they reject Jahovah as well (1 John 2:23, John 5:46).

So the bottom line is I don't see Jews going back to the God given land since the land is not thiers if they reject God and Jesus and they aren't even Jews as defined by the Bible itself.

[Guest]

Ezekiel 34:13
I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land.
Jeremiah 31:10
"Hear the word of the Lord, O nations; proclaim it in distant coastlands: 'He who scattered Israel will gather them and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.'

Deuteronomy 30:3-5
then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. He will bring you to the land that belonged to your fathers, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers.

The main reason that some groups dont like the fact that God predicted His people would become a nation again ,which happened in 1948,are that it shoots their theology to pieces. That God isn't through with Israel is quite evident from than the fact that they came back to the land in 1948. It also teaches us that God doesn't break His covenants. It also fits into Romans 11 where Paul says that gentiles have been grafted in but that God hasn't abandoned His chosen people. When you factor in the fact that Israel is actively training priests to preform temple ceremonies as we speak and plans on rebuilding the temple its begins to complete the last days scenario with exacting detail. Paul said in his letter to the Thessalonians that the day of the Lord wouldn't come until the son of perdition sets foot in the temple...what temple is that....well its the one thats going to be built. What stopped the 70th week of Daniel dead in its tracks was Christ starting the Church....Paul said until the times of the gentiles were fulfilled. Once that happens the last 7 years of Daniel is going to occur,the tribulation. Getting Gods program for the Church and Gods program for Israel confused is what a lot of people fall into. Clearly God is not finished with Israel and the fact that it is spoken of in the Old Testament and fulfilled a couple of thousand years later is ample proof of that.

[Guest]

Crusader said:

Paul said in his letter to the Thessalonians that the day of the Lord wouldn't come until the son of perdition sets foot in the temple...what temple is that

there is much that can be said to refute your whole line of thinking but the most obvious one first is that there is no mention in the Bible that the man of perdition will step foot in any last days temple. In fact there is no single verse in the New or Old testament that states a third temple is yet to be built. Ezekiel account of a temple could be said that it is the one that could of been if the Jewish obiedience had been performed but at the very most he is talking of and to the exiled Jews of his day. He specifically addresses the disobiedient priests who helped in bringing about the exile in the first place and how they would be demoted to nothing more than gate keepers and then those who were obiedient would have their specific duties of honor. Now unless one thinks that these priests have the ability or will be resurrected when/if a third temple "is" built in order to fulfill Ezekiel's prophecy, then we must conclude he was speaking of the priests who were still living at the end of the exile who had in fact done just as Eziekiel said they had. The only resurrection yet to come that I know of is the one at the last trump.

furthermore, it would be impossible to determine the true levitical line today not to mention the fact that a priest was ordained by God. The proper line of reasoning dictates that Christ is the High Priest forever as stated in Hebrews and no substitution would be tolerated by God.

If a temple is ever built, it would certainly be outside of the will of God and this would then further show the fact that the Jewish people as a nation have not yet returned to obiedience.

Also there is no verse saying that unbelieving Israel will be brought back into its homeland.

[Guest]

The next problem is that not only are Jews not pouring into Israel today, there are many leaving because they are getting blown up on a regular basis and live in constant fear of attack (just as God said they would if they turned from Him). They have no assurance from God that they will live in peace because they would have to actaully obey God for this to be so. This would mean accepting Christ, which they are able to do, even in this present age as Paul says in Romans 11:1 & 11:14.

And finally, a Jew is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly (Rom 2:28-29). Even Jesus called unbelieving Jews sons of thier father the devil (John 8:44) and of those who claim they are Jews but are not (Revelation 2:9 & 3:9).
My info is different in that Israel's population which is now 6 1/2 million is projected to increase to 8 million in the not to distant future. More religious jews are moving there whereas earlier it was secular jews. Re Romans 2.28 & John 8.44 i agree about spiritrual jews being true jews but this is about ethnic jews who reject Christ. As you know God's ways are not our ways and He usually does things through the most unlikely people.
Btw this is not about rebuilding the temple or the milleneum just about Israel's rebirth.
"Thus saith the Lord if i HAVE NOT APPOINTED THE ORDINANCES OF HEAVEN AND EARTH ,then I WILL cast away the seed of Jacob for i will cause their captivity to return and have mercy on them." Jer 31.35-37
Note God says as sure as He created heaven and earth is as sure as He will show mercy on them.

Zechariah was written after the return from Babylonian captivity and during the building of the temple.
"Zech 8.7-8 "Thus saith the Lord of Hosts ,Behold I will save my people from the east country and from the west country. And I will bring them and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem and they shall be my people and I will be their God in thruth and in righteousness."

Zech 8.13 "And it shall come to pass, that as you were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah,and house of Israel,so i will save you , and you shall be a blessing,fear not but let your hands be strong."

Isaiah 2.1-4 "The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. And it shall come to pass IN THE LAST DAYS that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains and shall be exalted above the hills.
for out of Zion shall go forth the law and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem."

Zech 12.6 "And Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place even in Jerusalem."
Up until the 67 war Jerusalem in part belonged to Israel but afterwards all of it belonged to Israel possibly fulfilling this "in her own place."

They took a poll in Europe recently about what country was the biggest threat to world peace. Guess who won, yes it was Israel, so the world would consider it a "burden" would it not?

Zech 12.3 "I will make Jerusalem a STONE OF BURDEN for all the peoples ,all that burden themselves with it shall be sore wounded and all the nations of the earth shall be gathered together against it."

[Guest]

Hi Steve7150

My temple response was due to what Crusader had written, saying:

When you factor in the fact that Israel is actively training priests to preform temple ceremonies as we speak and plans on rebuilding the temple its begins to complete the last days scenario with exacting detail.

To preform temple ceremonies one must have a temple. In fact the Temple Mount Faithful have already "laid" the "priestly blessed" corner stone, albeit not on the temple mount, because they were forbidden to do so, but on some piece of property they compromised with.

There was a big push by dispensational zionist to bring "the sacattered" back to the homeland. Russia had opened its doors and the big move came to get as many professing jews out of Russia as possible. Same went within other less priviledged nations, such as Ethiopia. This has put a tremendous strain on the economic situation in Israel. Israel does not turn away any Jew wanting to make Alyah, but the sad fact is that they have no good place to put these displaced souls and they are living poorer conditions then they would if they had stayed where they were at.

Another fact is that the Israeli citizenship is made up in large part of non-jewish.

The point we should consider though, I believe, is what does the Bible say. Does the Bible teach that Israel as a race of people will return to what was once the promised land for the faithful Jew? I don't think it does. I do see, however, that the remnant will return and this to the Mighty God. We know, and as Steve has taught so well, that the Mighty God is Jesus (Is 9:6). God is true to Himself and knows who His faithful are and will be. He is not about to give something with a promise to a stiff-necked people who never turn to the Lord.

[Guest]

2 Thes 2:3 "Let no one decieve you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped so that he sits as God in the temple of God."

Rev. 20:3 "And he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, so that he should decieve the nations no more till the thousand years were finished"

Rev. 20: 4 "And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Rev. 20:5 "But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

I take these verses to mean what they say. I don't need some kind of "spiritual" meaning for these verses because they contradict my view of escatolgy. And this is a huge problem with preterism and amillinialism. You have to come up with a "spiritual " interpretation for verses like these because they contradict your views.

I believe Paul meant what he said and there "Will" be an actual person, who will sit in the temple of God esalting himself above all that is called God.