What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

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steve
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by steve » Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:35 am

Everyone here seems to have an opinion about the meaning of aionios, and all are right—in different contexts. Most scholars seem to agree that the word can mean "age-during" or "lasting for an age (a very long period)." Most lexicons list "eternal" as a meaning, because some things that "last for a long time" actually have no end (like God, who is called aionios). Life and punishment may both be age-during and not be equally permanent. I could say that a tree is "age-during" and that a mountain is "age-during," without suggesting that a tree lasts anywhere near the endurance of a mountain. In the Bible, the world, the mountains, the gates of Jerusalem, the length of slavery of a man who remains a lifetime enslaved, the blessings on Israel, the curse on Israel, and very many things of differing durations, are all referred to as aionios. So is God. However, it is a mistake to say that, since the same word is used for all, they must all endure the same length of time. For the life of the saved and the punishment of the lost to both be called "age-enduring" tells us nothing about the respective length of time that each continues. Unless one assumes (foolishly) that everything described as aionios is endless, there is no suggestion in Matthew 25:46 that aionios life and aionios punishment are of the same duration.

In a different vein, there are numerous modern scholars (including F.F. Bruce) who say the most likely meaning of the word is "pertaining to the age"—namely, the Messianic Age. In such a case, there would be no hint in the word of duration, per se. It would be simply that the life of the redeemed and the punishment of the lost would both be such as belonged or pertained to the eschatological Age. If this is correct, then the mentions of aionios life and aionios punishment would be irrelevant to the question of equivalence of duration.

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Paidion
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by Paidion » Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:16 pm

Excellent, Steve!
I fully agree with your first paragraph concerning the meaning of "αιωνιος".
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by Homer » Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:02 pm

Hi Steve,

I'm thinking the universalism controversy is aionios. :lol:

Do you deny that Matthew 25:46 is an anthietical statement?

Antithesis definition:
Antithesis, which literally means “opposite,” is a rhetorical device in which two opposite ideas are put together in a sentence to achieve a contrasting effect.

Matthew 25:46
New American Standard Bible
46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Eternal , eternal are the same.
Punishment (death) , life are opposites.

If your understanding is correct, it would appear that you (and Paidion) have destroyed any assurance that we will have eternal life.

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Paidion
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by Paidion » Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:59 pm

Homer wrote:If your understanding is correct, it would appear that you (and Paidion) have destroyed any assurance that we will have eternal life.
And it would appear that you, Homer, still do not comprehend the meaning of "αιωνιος".
Paidion

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backwoodsman
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by backwoodsman » Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:15 am

Homer wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:02 pm
If your understanding is correct, it would appear that you (and Paidion) have destroyed any assurance that we will have eternal life.
That's true only if Matt. 25:46 is the only verse in the Bible in which you can find a belief in eternal life. But of course it isn't; in fact, even if 'aionios' meant 'eternal', you could ignore every instance of 'aionios', and still have a solid teaching on eternal life. So this is a straw man.

As for 'aionios', it's been shown a number of times in these forums over the years that 'eternal' is a bad translation. One of the more solid proofs is a doctoral dissertation done by Heleen Keizer in 1999, which has been mentioned before. I see the link posted previously is now dead, but you can download it here; you need to sign up, but it's easy and free: https://www.academia.edu/29892909/_Eter ... F%8E%CE%BD

I've put a copy here also, which I'll leave up for a while: https://disk.yandex.com/i/gOUQxQOQX50YOQ

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Paidion
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by Paidion » Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:57 am

The word “aiōnios”, far from meaning “eternal”, actually means “lasting” and has been used in “The Wars of the Jews” by Josephus, the Jewish historian (who wrote in Greek) to describe the length of time that Jonathan spent in prison, which is said to have been 3 years.

In the Old Testament Septuagint, a translation of the Old Testament into Greek around 300 B.C., the word “aiōnios” is used for the time that Jonah spent in the belly of the fish.
Paidion

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Darrell
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by Darrell » Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:33 am

Which one of these statements are true?

1.Unless one assumes (foolishly) that everything described as aionios is endless, there is no suggestion in Matthew 25:46 that aionios life and aionios punishment are of the same duration.

2. Unless one assumes (foolishly) that everything described as aionios is ending, there is no suggestion in Matthew 25:46 that aionios life and aionios punishment are not of the same duration.

Jon 2:6 KJV I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever (ôlâm) yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

Jon 2:6 LXXE (2:7) to the clefts of the mountains; I went down into the earth, whose bars are the everlasting (αἰώνιοι) barriers: yet, O Lord my God, let my ruined life be restored.

Paidion, is the LXX saying the same thing as the Masoretic Text?

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Paidion
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by Paidion » Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:57 pm

In the Masoretic text, the word is "owlam" and Strong defines the word as:

1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
1a) ancient time, long time (of past)
1b) (of future)
1b1) for ever, always
1b2) continuous existence, perpetual
1b3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity
Paidion

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Darrell
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by Darrell » Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:07 pm

Paidion wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:57 am
In the Old Testament Septuagint, a translation of the Old Testament into Greek around 300 B.C., the word “aiōnios” is used for the time that Jonah spent in the belly of the fish.
Jonah 2:6 LXXE (2:7) to the clefts of the mountains; I went down into the earth, whose bars are the everlasting (αἰώνιοι) barriers: yet, O Lord my God, let my ruined life be restored.

Lexham English Septuagint
Jonah 2:7 I went down into the Earth where it's bars are eternal barriers, so let the corruption of my life depart, oh Lord my God

Paidion, is the LXX usinng "αιωνιοι" to describe Jonah's time spent in the fish?

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Homer
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Re: What are your thoughts concerning universalism?

Post by Homer » Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:36 pm

Here we go folks - some reassuring, true to he author's intent, translations of the scriptures as the universalists would have it:

2 Corinthians 4:18
New American Standard Bible 1995
18. while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are temporary (aionia).


2 Timothy 2:10
New American Standard Bible 1995
10.For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it temporary(aioniou) glory.

1 Peter 5:10
New American Standard Bible 1995
10. After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His temporary(aionion) glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.

2 Peter 1:11
New American Standard Bible 1995
11. for in this way the entrance into the temporary (aionion) kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

Hebrews 5:9
New American Standard Bible 1995
9. And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of temporary(aioniou) salvation,

Hebrews 9:12-15
New American Standard Bible 1995
12. and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained temporary (aionion) redemption. 13. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14.how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the temporary (aionion) Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15. For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the temporary(aioniou) inheritance.

Hebrews 13:20
New American Standard Bible 1995
20. Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the temporary covenant, even Jesus our Lord,

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