My Uncle's Question
Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:16 pm
One of my uncles sent me this question via email and I thought I'd share it and my reply
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Dear Matthew,
A couple of recent funerals have got me to thinking about things of a religious nature, and I am asking for your thoughts here. I understand that when our souls go to heaven, there is no more suffering; no more pain. I also understand (and this is probably NOT stated in the Bible) that Grandma (or whomever) is looking down at us from Heaven.
I don't understand how both could be true. If I die and enter Heaven and can "look down" at my children or friends or whomever, I will worry about them just as I do now, with the nuclear threat from multiple sources, and impulsive, evil people "leading" various countries worldwide. That worry (which also springs from many other issues) IS SUFFERING and it IS PAIN, no?
I welcome your thoughts.
Thanks,
Uncle ________
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Uncle ______,
Your question... or, perhaps, more accurately, your observation of the tension between two popular beliefs... is a good one
Here are the 2 beliefs you mentioned
1) When our souls go to heaven, there is no more suffering or pain
2) Those in heaven are looking down on us
I think you have rightly pointed out that there is a tension between these beliefs. How could souls in heaven NOT be worried about their loved ones still living in such a dangerous world? And, to take it a step further, how could they NOT suffer or be pained when bad things did, in fact, happen to their loved ones (as they sometimes do)? As you suggested, it seems these 2 popular beliefs are not compatible.
I would tend to agree with you, which means that either #1 is wrong OR #2 is wrong OR perhaps both are wrong. I think the most common way to resolve this tension would be to deny belief #2 (that those in heaven are looking down on us) as simply a sentimental belief with no basis in reality. I, on the other hand, would resolve the tension differently based on my understanding of Scripture.
From my perspective, it is actually belief #1 (the idea that when our souls go to heaven there is no more pain) that is flawed. This belief seems to be based on the end of the book of Revelation which states "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away" (Revelation 21:4).
The problem is, that verse is actually talking about post Judgment Day and life in the New Heavens and the New Earth. Many people confuse the Intermediate State (the time between Death and Judgment Day) and the Eternal State (The New Heavens & The New Earth). Orthodox Christianity teaches that when someone dies, their 'soul' goes into God's presence (Heaven) to await the resurrection of the body (on Judgment Day). Once we've received a resurrection body, we'll live forever on the New Earth. It is this eternal state (the New Earth) that Revelation 21:4 is describing (this is clear from 21:1).
This makes much more sense of the wording of this passage. The reason there will be no more crying or pain on the New Earth is specifically because there will be no more death anywhere. The old order (ruled by death) will have been dealt with once and for all.
But during the Intermediate State, we have no real grounds (in Scripture) for believing that 'souls' will be free from worrying about their loved ones. If anything, I'd say we have evidence in the opposite direction. After all, in one of the few peaks we get into the Intermediate State (Revelation 6:10), we find 'souls' in Heaven who are asking "how long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" It seems then (though I hesitate to draw too much concrete doctrine from such a symbolic book as Revelation) that souls in the Intermediate State are, indeed, worried about the evil that is still happening on earth.
Based on these Scriptures, I believe that God's people who have passed from this Earth are now in heaven and are aware of the many problems (in fact, they are probably far more aware of the problems than we are!). But they are also much more aware of the ultimate solution (since they are in God's direct presence). As a whole, I would consider it a better vantage point to watch history unfold than that of the living. They, like us, are still awaiting ultimate justice (Judgment Day & the New Heavens and New Earth), but they have an even greater assurance that that time will come (even if they keep asking how much longer it will take).
Those are my thoughts. I hope they help you think through the tension you felt.
I'm sorry to hear you had to attend multiple funerals. I pray God comforts you in your grief.
God bless,
Matthew
.................................
Dear Matthew,
A couple of recent funerals have got me to thinking about things of a religious nature, and I am asking for your thoughts here. I understand that when our souls go to heaven, there is no more suffering; no more pain. I also understand (and this is probably NOT stated in the Bible) that Grandma (or whomever) is looking down at us from Heaven.
I don't understand how both could be true. If I die and enter Heaven and can "look down" at my children or friends or whomever, I will worry about them just as I do now, with the nuclear threat from multiple sources, and impulsive, evil people "leading" various countries worldwide. That worry (which also springs from many other issues) IS SUFFERING and it IS PAIN, no?
I welcome your thoughts.
Thanks,
Uncle ________
---------------------------------
Uncle ______,
Your question... or, perhaps, more accurately, your observation of the tension between two popular beliefs... is a good one
Here are the 2 beliefs you mentioned
1) When our souls go to heaven, there is no more suffering or pain
2) Those in heaven are looking down on us
I think you have rightly pointed out that there is a tension between these beliefs. How could souls in heaven NOT be worried about their loved ones still living in such a dangerous world? And, to take it a step further, how could they NOT suffer or be pained when bad things did, in fact, happen to their loved ones (as they sometimes do)? As you suggested, it seems these 2 popular beliefs are not compatible.
I would tend to agree with you, which means that either #1 is wrong OR #2 is wrong OR perhaps both are wrong. I think the most common way to resolve this tension would be to deny belief #2 (that those in heaven are looking down on us) as simply a sentimental belief with no basis in reality. I, on the other hand, would resolve the tension differently based on my understanding of Scripture.
From my perspective, it is actually belief #1 (the idea that when our souls go to heaven there is no more pain) that is flawed. This belief seems to be based on the end of the book of Revelation which states "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away" (Revelation 21:4).
The problem is, that verse is actually talking about post Judgment Day and life in the New Heavens and the New Earth. Many people confuse the Intermediate State (the time between Death and Judgment Day) and the Eternal State (The New Heavens & The New Earth). Orthodox Christianity teaches that when someone dies, their 'soul' goes into God's presence (Heaven) to await the resurrection of the body (on Judgment Day). Once we've received a resurrection body, we'll live forever on the New Earth. It is this eternal state (the New Earth) that Revelation 21:4 is describing (this is clear from 21:1).
This makes much more sense of the wording of this passage. The reason there will be no more crying or pain on the New Earth is specifically because there will be no more death anywhere. The old order (ruled by death) will have been dealt with once and for all.
But during the Intermediate State, we have no real grounds (in Scripture) for believing that 'souls' will be free from worrying about their loved ones. If anything, I'd say we have evidence in the opposite direction. After all, in one of the few peaks we get into the Intermediate State (Revelation 6:10), we find 'souls' in Heaven who are asking "how long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" It seems then (though I hesitate to draw too much concrete doctrine from such a symbolic book as Revelation) that souls in the Intermediate State are, indeed, worried about the evil that is still happening on earth.
Based on these Scriptures, I believe that God's people who have passed from this Earth are now in heaven and are aware of the many problems (in fact, they are probably far more aware of the problems than we are!). But they are also much more aware of the ultimate solution (since they are in God's direct presence). As a whole, I would consider it a better vantage point to watch history unfold than that of the living. They, like us, are still awaiting ultimate justice (Judgment Day & the New Heavens and New Earth), but they have an even greater assurance that that time will come (even if they keep asking how much longer it will take).
Those are my thoughts. I hope they help you think through the tension you felt.
I'm sorry to hear you had to attend multiple funerals. I pray God comforts you in your grief.
God bless,
Matthew