I'm reviving this post in response to an inquiry from Zechariah 14:3
thrombomodulin wrote: TruthInLove wrote:
thrombomodulin wrote:The idea of conquering through the gospel seems attractive given Daniel 2:44.
I would respectfully disagree with Steve and others who see this portion of Daniel as a reference to a period of Roman domination.
Despite being a minority view, I am convinced that the biblical evidence overwhelmingly supports the idea that Daniel's 4th kingdom was the ancient Greek Empire and that ancient Rome is not a primary focus of Daniel, although it is mentioned a handful of times. I'd also be willing to explore this with anyone who may be interested.
I have only been exposed to the idea that it Daniel's 4th kingdom is the Roman empire. I am interested in learning about your view that it is not, can you please elaborate?
This is a somewhat involved subject, but I’ll do my best to give an overview of the major justifications for viewing Daniel’s 4 kingdoms as Babylon, Media, Persian-dominated Medo-Persia, and Greece. I can elaborate, clarify and respond to possible objections as requested.
First, the prophets had long expected Media to overthrow Babylon (Jeremiah 51:11,27-29; Isaiah 13:17; 21:2
) So if the Babylonian empire was the 1st of Daniel’s kingdoms, as most would agree it is, based on these earlier prophets then, we would expect Media to be the 2nd kingdom.
Of all of Daniel's visions, those of chapter 8 and 11 probably contain the largest number of entities whose historical identities are agreed upon by nearly all interpreters. In chapter 8, the Ram is identified in the text itself as "Media and Persia" and the He-Goat is identified as "Greece". In chapter 11, scholars are almost in complete agreement that the kings of the North and South are the various Greek rulers of Egypt and Syria respectively, at least up until verse 36 or 40. It seems that it would be safest then to use these chapters as a guide to understanding the less obvious visions of chapters 2 and 7.
I've attempted to do this visually with the graphic below since jumping back and forth between the texts can be quite tedious and confusing. This color-coded table, crude though it may be, will hopefully more readily demonstrate the comparisons between the beasts of chapter 7, the statue segments of chapter 2 and the Ram and the He-Goat of chapter 8. I’ve paired the Ram and the He-Goat with the 3rd and 4th kingdoms respectively, as I believe the comparisons justify those pairings. Most interpreters would pair the Ram with the 2nd kingdom and the He-Goat with the 3rd, which I think poses several issues.
The bulk of Chapters 8 and 11 are concerned with Greece. This may then suggest that the kingdom in the other chapters which is spoken of in the greatest detail would most likely be identified with Greece also. The most detailed descriptions are of the 4th kingdom. Also, by comparison, the 4th kingdom seems to have the most in common with the He-Goat (Greece) than does the 3rd kingdom.
We can further recognize that Rome never devoured the earth to quite the degree that Persia and Greece did.
We are told that the 2nd kingdom would be or was already inferior to the Babylonian Empire under Nebuchadnezzar but if the 2nd kingdom was the Medo-Persian Empire, that could hardly be the case. Further, the 4th beast is completely destroyed before the establishment of the Messiah’s kingdom. Not only was the Roman Empire still growing when Christ came, it also fell very gradually over a period of centuries, well after the advent of Christ. In what way could Christ’s kingdom be viewed to have manifested itself after Rome fell?
Also, I have yet to hear a satisfactory explanation for the 7 horns, the little horn and the 3 horns that were uprooted before it in terms of the Roman Empire. On the other hand, the lives of the kings and princes of Greece fit this description very well.
[v. Zec. 9:9
is quoted loosely in Mat. 21:5; Jhn. 12:15
] associates the coming of the Messiah with the passing of the Greek empire. If the kingdom of the Messiah was the 5th kingdom of Daniel, then that would make Greece the 4th.
Additionally, if the beast of Rev. 13:2
was the Roman Empire, as I believe it truly was, why is it described as a composite
of the beasts of Daniel 7? This is especially strange given that the 4th beast is "different"
than the previous beasts (Dan. 7:23
). If the 4th beast of Daniel was Rome, why doesn’t Revelation simply just use that same imagery, excluding that of the other attributes of the other 3 beasts?
It’s also clear that the 4th kingdom is destroyed in association with an appearance of God and wind (Dan. 2:34-35,44-45
). Similarly, the 4th kingdom is destroyed in association with the installment of the throne of God afterwards, complete with wheels. (Dan. 7:9-10
) Compare these to the whirlwind and wheels of God’s chariot-throne in Ezekiel 1:4,15; 10:1-2,6,9-10,12-13,15-16,20,22
Notice also that a “whirlwind” appears in Dan. 11:40
in suspiciously close conjunction to the description of Antiochus Epiphanes. I talk at great length about this in the video
mentioned above as I believe this has a tremendous and unacknowledged significance in correctly interpreting the last few verses of Dan. 11.
This is probably a good deal to chew on for now and hopefully will at least demonstrate that this view should be given serious consideration. I’m aware of objections to this view but I believe they all have more than satisfactory answers. I can address those as they are brought forth in this discussion. I mention several resources in my previous post that elaborate more on this view.
One thing further I would say about this view at this time is that it has opened my eyes to a great deal of symbolism which is employed in Daniel’s visions. Symbolism that has gone largely unnoticed and unexplained by the scholarly community. Just as Revelation is largely based on Old Testament imagery, I believe Daniel can be shown to be quite dependent on images from and give deeper meaning to events from the OT. I’m currently working on making some resources available to fill these gaps.
I hope this helps. Please let me know if there is anything you'd like to have clarified or expounded on.