Facts to be Considered by All Full Preterists

End Times
Post Reply
User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5065
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Facts to be Considered by All Full Preterists

Post by Paidion » Sat Dec 05, 2015 1:50 pm

I think the fact that no early Christian writer who wrote after 70 A.D., referred to the second coming of Christ as an event in the past or one that occurred during his lifetime, is significant as evidence against the view that He came in 70 A.D.

Surely if Christ had returned in 70 A.D., then at least one Christian writer who had lived through that period would have mentioned it. The argument from silence, though not a formal proof, notwithstanding, is a strong indicator. Can you imagine all writers who lived through a major event such as the holocaust having made no mention of it? And what event could be more significant than the second coming of Christ?

Here are some of the early writers to whom I refer:

1 Clement of Rome (30-100 A.D.), fellow labourer with Paul (Philippians 4:3), and whose letter to the Corinthians has been dated 97 A.D.

2 Letter to Diognetus dated 130 A.D.

3 Polycarp (65-155 A.D.), letter to the Philippians, probably written in the early second century.

4 Ignatius (30-107 A.D.), fifteen letters are ascribed to him.

5 Letter of Barnabas, written about 100 A.D.

Indeed Barnabas wrote of the coming of Christ as an event future to himself. See chapter 15.

Justin Martyr (110-165 A.D.), though he hadn't yet been born during the destruction of Jerusalem, also, in his “Dialogue with Trypho” spoke of the second coming as a future event, including even the Antichrist. Here is a quote from “Dialogue with Trypho":

...two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

dwilkins
Posts: 647
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:54 pm

Re: Facts to be Considered by All Full Preterists

Post by dwilkins » Sun Dec 06, 2015 9:52 am

Your assertion is based on anachronism. The terms "second coming" or "second advent" didn't exist until Justin Martyr invented them in about 170AD (in a dialog designed to prove that the Jews were proven to be rejected by God for good, just in case my dispensational friends are interested), long after some of those who you cite were writing. It's more important, in my opinion, that early writers like Clement of Alexandria, writing only a few years after Justin, were crystal clear that in their opinion the Olivet Discourse and Daniel's 70 Week prophecy were fulfilled by the Roman war.

If we are going to use early church writings as our primary source, will you admit that these two passages have been fulfilled? If so, that would make for an interesting conversation.

Doug

User avatar
robbyyoung
Posts: 811
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:23 am

Re: Facts to be Considered by All Full Preterists

Post by robbyyoung » Sun Dec 06, 2015 1:50 pm

Hello Paidion,

We cannot find any Christian writers following closely after the events of A.D. 70. Those christians who heeded Yeshua's advice and warning to flee Jerusalem and head to the mountains (Pella) to escape the coming Great Tribulation - followed by Christ's Return couldn't have possibly remained silent. Let me reiterate, you cannot dichotomize fleeing to the mountains and Christ's Return. These events were of a single thought, action, and expectation. If you have to read the account again to see it, then I suggest that you do so. These are Yeshua's words, and the believers fled the city, judgement came, and therefore Yeshua returned. To suggest otherwise makes Yeshua partially right and a false prophet.

What's a best estimation of how many actually fled the city? Would you say at least 100,000 or more? How could devout christians in any significant number not boldly proclaim how Yeshua was correct or incorrect concerning His prophecies after the fall of Jerusalem? Well, if Yeshua was spot-on concerning His prophecies there would be no true christians around to give an account, don't you think? He told the christians to flee the city; the believers fled the city; he told the believers because there would be great tribulation; there was great tribulation; then he said the Son of Man will return and gather his elect; therefore, we have silence in the record with no reason to believe the latter didn't happen.

I'm going to believe what the correct expectation of the day was. Yeshua and The Apostles were not the Hagee's and Hinn's of our day. No, their expectation and predictions were right; therefore, everyone else past, present, and future are and will be wrong. Can you imagine placing Yeshua and The Apostles in the same miserable group of false prophets of the last 1800 years!

Lastly, anyone who missed "the rapture" were obviously not ready; foolish virgins. The N.T. Writers constantly exhorted people to remain stedfast and not miss out on this event. Again, their expectations were correct. It's not unreasonable for me or anyone else to believe the chain of events that transpired in the 1st century.

God Bless.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5065
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Facts to be Considered by All Full Preterists

Post by Paidion » Sun Dec 06, 2015 2:58 pm

We cannot find any Christian writers following closely after the events of A.D. 70.
I think I gave some pretty good examples of some who did. But consider Clement of Rome in particular:

Clement of Rome (30-100 A.D.), fellow labourer with Paul (Philippians 4:3), and whose letter to the Corinthians has been dated 97 A.D.

Yes, Clement wrote a letter to the Corinthians around 97 A.D. He was surely a Christian since he laboured together in the gospel with the apostle Paul. Though he wrote the letter a couple of decades after 70 A.D. He must have lived through the period in which the Romans destroyed the temple. So why did he "miss the rapture"? Was he not ready?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

User avatar
robbyyoung
Posts: 811
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:23 am

Re: Facts to be Considered by All Full Preterists

Post by robbyyoung » Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:03 pm

Paidion wrote:
We cannot find any Christian writers following closely after the events of A.D. 70.
I think I gave some pretty good examples of some who did. But consider Clement of Rome in particular:

Clement of Rome (30-100 A.D.), fellow labourer with Paul (Philippians 4:3), and whose letter to the Corinthians has been dated 97 A.D.

Yes, Clement wrote a letter to the Corinthians around 97 A.D. He was surely a Christian since he laboured together in the gospel with the apostle Paul. Though he wrote the letter a couple of decades after 70 A.D. He must have lived through the period in which the Romans destroyed the temple. So why did he "miss the rapture"? Was he not ready?
Hi Paidion,

Assuming that I Clement is genuine and that it has survived substantially uncorrupted, it is safe to say that it was written between c. A.D. 67 and 70, and that its eschatological message is preterism. Additionally, it is pure myth that he was around after 70 A.D.

For Clement, the Parousia, the Resurrection of the dead and the Judgment were all about to happen at the fall of the Temple in Jerusalem.

We know that Clement's epistle was written shortly after c. A.D. 67, because he says in chapter six that Paul and Peter were martyred “in our own generation,” and that they were “the most recent spiritual heroes.” (Chapter 5) Along with them, Clement adds, “a great multitude …endured many indignities and tortures…” (Chapter 6)

The “indignities and tortures” of Paul, Peter and the “great multitude” were probably part of the Neronian persecution (or more precisely, the Jewish-Neronian persecution) that began in c. A.D. 64. According to tradition, Peter and Paul were martyred in that persecution in c. A.D. 67.

We can infer that Clement's epistle was written before A.D. 70, because he speaks in four places of the Temple in Jerusalem:


In chapter 32: “…For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God…”

In chapter 40: “…He has enjoined offerings and service to be performed at the appointed times and hours. …Those, therefore, who present their offerings at the appointed times, are accepted and blessed; for inasmuch as they follow the laws of the Lord. …For his own peculiar services are assigned to the high priest, and their own proper place is prescribed to the priests, and their own special ministrations devolve on the Levites…”

In chapter 41: “…Not in every place, brethren, are the daily sacrifices offered, or the peace-offerings, or the sin-offerings and the trespass-offerings, but in Jerusalem only. And even there they are not offered in any place, but only at the altar before the temple, that which is offered being first carefully examined by the high priest and the ministers…”

In Chapter 23, Clement not only implies that the Temple is still standing, but he places the Resurrection of the dead in the day of its destruction.

Some at Corinth had doubts about the impending Resurrection, because so many years had passed by with no change. To impress upon the Corinthians the nearness of that Day, Clement told them to compare themselves to a vine. “In a little time,” he said, it sheds its leaves; it buds; it puts forth leaves; it flowers; it produces sour grapes, and then ripened and mature grapes. Even so, said Clement, “soon,” “suddenly” and “speedily” He would come and would “not tarry.” “The Holy One” would come “to His Temple.”

Thus before A.D. 70, Clement taught the Corinthians that when they reached maturity "in a little time," the Judge would come to His Temple and raise the dead. (cf. Mal. 3:1-2)

Clement's eschatology was pure, biblical preterism.

In this light, compare these two pairs of verses from I Clement and the book of Acts:

I Clement, Chapter 24: “…The Lord continually proves to us that the resurrection which is about to come will be…”

Acts 24:15: "There is about to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked."

I Clement, Chapter 28: “…Through His mercy, we may be protected from the judgment about to come…”

Acts 24:25: “As he was discussing righteousness, self-control and the judgment about to come…"

God Bless.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5065
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Facts to be Considered by All Full Preterists

Post by Paidion » Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:19 pm

Hi Robby,

If you google Clement's letter to the Corinthians, you will see that virtually all scholars consider it to have been written after the persecution of Domitian. Full Preterists, of course, make it after the persecution of Nero as they do the writing of the book of Revelation.

I understand the points you are trying to make for an pre-AD70 date, but none of them are convincing.
1. We know that Clement's epistle was written shortly after c. A.D. 67, because he says in chapter six that Paul and Peter were martyred “in our own generation,” and that they were “the most recent spiritual heroes.” (Chapter 5) Along with them, Clement adds, “a great multitude …endured many indignities and tortures…” (Chapter 6)


The fact that Paul and Peter were martyred in Clement's generation does not imply that Clement's letter was written shortly after A.D. 67. They were martyred in Clement's generation even though Clement may have lived until 100 A.D. as most scholars believe. For Clement was alive when they were martyred, and thus they were martyred in his generation.
2.We can infer that Clement's epistle was written before A.D. 70, because he speaks in four places of the Temple in Jerusalem:
A. In chapter 32: “…For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God…”
Actually the word translated as "minister" (λειτουργουντς) is not a present indicative. (By the way, the English word "liturgy" is derived from the root word).
"λειτουργουντς" is a present active participle, nominative plural masculine. According to Greek grammar books, the "present" aspect does not necessarily mean that the action is being done NOW, but means that it is continuous. It could be a continuous action in the past. William D Mounce in "Basics of Biblical Greek" in his summary of his chapter on present participles, stated:
The present participle is built on the present tense stem of the verb and indicates a continuous action. There is no time significance to a participle [underlining mine]. We encourage students to adopt the terminology "continuous" participle.
Thus the text to which you refer could be translated as, "“…For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who used to minister at the altar of God…”
B. In chapter 40: “…He has enjoined offerings and service to be performed at the appointed times and hours. …Those, therefore, who present their offerings at the appointed times, are accepted and blessed; for inasmuch as they follow the laws of the Lord. …For his own peculiar services are assigned to the high priest, and their own proper place is prescribed to the priests, and their own special ministrations devolve on the Levites…”
Again the present participle, I mean the continuous participle, is used.
C. In chapter 41: “…Not in every place, brethren, are the daily sacrifices offered, or the peace-offerings, or the sin-offerings and the trespass-offerings, but in Jerusalem only. And even there they are not offered in any place, but only at the altar before the temple, that which is offered being first carefully examined by the high priest and the ministers…”
In this case, I must admit the true present tense is used. However, since he used the continuous participle in the other instances, he probably still had the past in mind. Here is Lightfoot's note about this [Lightfoot did extensive work on Clement to the Corinthians and has a lot of notes.]
Lightfoot wrote:The present tense has been thought to imply that the sacrifices were still offered and the temple still standing, and therefore to fix the date of the epistle before the destruction of Jerusalem, i.e. about the close of Nero's reign. To this very early date however there are insuperable objections.
Lightfoot then refers us to his explanation in volume 1 of his work in which he gives detail concerning the "insuperable objections." I won't quote any of this except his first two sentences under the title The date:
Common opinion places the date of this document about the close of the reign of Domitian or immediately after (A.D. 95, 96). This view, which was put forward by Patrick Young the first editor (A.D. 1633) has commended itself to divers schools, and has now become so general that it may be regarded as the received opinion.
You may be wondering when "now" was. The first part of Lightfoot's work on Clement's letter was issued in 1869. However, in general, I don't think that "received opinion" has changed.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

User avatar
robbyyoung
Posts: 811
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:23 am

Facts to be Considered by All Full Preterists

Post by robbyyoung » Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:29 pm

Hi Paidion,
Paidion wrote:I understand the points you are trying to make for an pre-AD70 date, but none of them are convincing.
Of course, I understand. However, your biased position to find even the smallest chance to support futurism totally ignores the internal biblical record. For instance, you said...

(bold underlined emphasis is mine)
According to Greek grammar books, the "present" aspect does not necessarily mean that the action is being done NOW, but means that it is continuous.
Therefore, instead of taking the internal biblical record over some remote chance to contradict Yeshua's words, you eagerly choose contradiction. To prove my point, I said this...
Let me reiterate, you cannot dichotomize fleeing to the mountains and Christ's Return. These events were of a single thought, action, and expectation. If you have to read the account again to see it, then I suggest that you do so. These are Yeshua's words, and the believers fled the city, judgement came, and therefore Yeshua returned. To suggest otherwise makes Yeshua partially right and a false prophet.
It's the same timeline and audience who fled to the mountains and who awaits Yeshua's return, gathering of the elect and judgment. Historically everyone agrees "this escape to the mountains" actually occurred. But if this historically occurred, then everything else that was mentioned also happened. Yeshua was spot-on concerning everything in the timeline except what others hi-jacked to call their own. You are very fond of Yeshua's words over all others, well then why aren't you acknowledging them as an accurate account to what took place in His generation? Here it is again:

Matt 24:16 >>> 21 these believers are escaping "the great tribulation". (everyone agrees Yeshua was historically correct regarding "flee to the mountains)

Matt 24:22 >>> 31 there is no dichotomy. Same people, same audience.

The historical and internal biblical record makes Yeshua correct in all phases of His predictions. If fleeing to the mountains, great tribulation, and fall of Jerusalem happened, then everything else happened that was mentioned. So when you say the greek doesn't "necessarily mean", I say it does "necessarily mean", and I'm not convinced by your reasoning against the complete record. Therefore most scholars are wrong and the minority are correct, because scripture takes precedence.

So are you going to deal with the internal record as I presented it above? Was Yeshua partially right making Him a false prophet?

God Bless.

outofher
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 8:11 pm

Re: Facts to be Considered by All Full Preterists

Post by outofher » Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:20 am

Preterists have it half right. The preterist see's all prophecy fulfilled by 70 AD but fails to see the similitude that carries forward as the spiritual fulfillment in the "future"

Zec 4:9 The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.

This prophecy talks about how Zerubabbel built Ezras temple but also is a similitude for the second coming as it is also talking about the 2 witness royal priesthood that builds new Jerusalem. The spiritual house built with lively stones.

Same thing is happening here

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The preterist wil show this prophecy as fulfilled by detailing the day the hour, the minute that Christ entered Jerusalem on an ass etc but fails to understand the spiritual as it is a prophecy of the holy city new Jerusalem which is the church of new covenant Israel.

Mat_26:61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.

This is talking about Jesus physical body but is also prophetic of the future as it is talking about his spiritual body the church. At the end of the second day, the pentecost church age the body or the temple is in ruins. This is what we are living in right now. The church is in complete ruin, not one stone is upon another. But..

Hos 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
Hos 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

At the end of the second day, now, God begins reviving us as we see many waking up to the abominations being done in Jesus' name IE corporate mega mania christiandom. this leads to the third day latter rain outpouring. Tabernacles.

We are at the end of the pentecost indwelling age, the second day. We are transitioning to the third day, the age of tabernacles

Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

The age of pentecost has been our earnest of the spirit

Eph_1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

At the Lords return, tabernacles, when Haggai's prophecy is fulfilled.

Hag 2:9 The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts.

When the 2 witness royal priesthood, the 2 sticks, become one.

Zec 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
Zec 6:13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

The BRANCH

The manifest sons. Christ's return when he mainifests in his body, new Jerusalem, the Bride.

The Branch

Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

The 144000, the manifest sons

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Who restore the apostate church

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The Branch, the 144000, the manifest sons, the Bride, the deliverer who turn away ungoliness from Jacob, apostate christianity.

outofher
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 8:11 pm

Re: Facts to be Considered by All Full Preterists

Post by outofher » Sun Feb 21, 2016 12:08 pm

Neh_8:1 And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which the LORD had commanded to Israel.

Right now the 2 witnesses are on the road to Zion

Jer 50:4 In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the children of Israel shall come, they and the children of Judah together, going and weeping: they shall go, and seek the LORD their God.
Jer 50:5 They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying, Come, and let us join ourselves to the LORD in a perpetual covenant that shall not be forgotten.
Jer 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

The Lord is gatherin us one by one

Isa 27:12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.

Gathering us together as "one man" the true royal (Zerubabbel) priesthood (Joshua) right before mystery Babylon is destroyed forever.

Post Reply

Return to “Eschatology”