dwilkins wrote:It would have been courteous of you to provide the references to Isaiah, Zechariah, and Zephaniah.
I'm not sure I'd even want to talk to someone who couldn't even locate these passages in his Bible.
But, I think it's interesting that those would have been the passages I would have used to make my point. They are prophecies made in real history, and that were fulfilled by real events in real history. To make them mean otherwise would be to spiritualize them, literally.
Nonsense. If you don't take the "literal" meaning, then you are spiritualizing. You can't shift the goalposts just to fit your doctrine.
1. DId all flesh die, including all birds and fish?
2. Did the heavens and earth shake violently and pass away?
No and no. Sorry, but the "spiritualizing" card is on you, and you alone.
Since you admit that these judgments are part of temporal judgments, the burden of proof is on you to establish that these terms are used to define something outside of that in these verses.
I just wrote what the verses say, friend. If you want to say they mean something else, the burden is on you, surely? I have one question:
1. Do the passages above, taken literally, fit the final judgment described in the NT? Yes or no.
On the other hand, I'd argue that the New Testament authors used the terms that they knew to describe the fact that another national judgement was on the horizon.
Annnnd in comes your speculation and eisegesis to make everything fit your pet doctrine.
Daniel and the New Testament authors assert that the individual judgment of the dead at the end of the age would happen at the same time as a day of the Lord judgment against Israel, but that's not the same thing as saying that the day of the Lord is simply a judgement against dead men at the end of time (and idea not found in scripture).
Yes, it is an idea found in Scripture. This following passage precisely parallels and echoes the exact same ideas found in the prophetic passages quoted above:
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, xhe was thrown into the lake of fire.
If you'd like, I could repeat again my analysis of stoicheia, which I argue means the fundamental components of idol worship including the demonic forces behind the idols and the works associated with people doing the worship. I've done so before, but if you prefer me to do it again I will. The bottom line is that the melting of the physical universe was not Peter's point. It also wasn't Paul's point, and he's the one who defined the term for Peter.
Of course it was Peter's point, otherwise why did he say we look for a
new one? You are twisting the plain meaning to fit your Preterism.
I don't think it's fair or reasonable for you to call me a liar. I have explained my point here and in the past. Your position is incoherent and displays a juvenile ignorance of Old Testament prophecy in my opinion.
I didn't call you a liar. I called you either dishonest or deceived. So it's not "fair or reasonable" for you to say I called you a liar, is it? Everything I said is coherent, and maybe that's why it upsets you so much, I don't know. You didn't demonstrate one place where it was incoherent, or explain why it's not coherent, so you're basically just "asserting" you "win" with no evidence. That kind of debate is acceptable on a playground I guess, but I don't think you could expect me to accept it as a thinking, serious and respectful student of God's Word. If my exegeting carefully and methodically the OT passages on the day of the Lord is "juvenile ignorance," and my blindly accepting forced Preterism is somehow "the perfect and pure wisdom of God" (I guess), than I'll be perfectly happy to be called a fool for Christ.
God bless,
a fool for God's Word