"The Time is at Hand"

End Times
dizerner

Re: "The Time is at Hand"

Post by dizerner » Mon Jun 22, 2015 5:44 pm

robby wrote:Yeshua isn't speaking randomly into the air, NO, He's looking into the eyes of the ones asking the questions and pulling them into the response, for THEY will be instrumental in the answers given. So we read in Matt 24: 36
These Apostles were the seed and foundation of his future Church, the rock cut out not by human hands. When Yeshua looked into the eyes of Peter, he was by extension looking right into my eyes, because I believe in Yeshua through the words of Peter testifying to his life and message. And what does Yeshua himself say:

"I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word"

Did Yeshua pray for me that day, robby?

Again Yeshua said:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations... teaching them to observe all that I commanded you"

Did the Apostles John and Peter teach me all things that Yeshua commanded them through their words they have left in writing? Should I observe all things Yeshua commanded them? Or should just they observe those things, robby?

Want to know something else Peter said?

"For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself"

Is the promise for me as much as it was for Peter? Did Peter really have no long-term vision of future generations obeying the words of Yeshua? You really think that's a tenable exegesis upheld by the Word of God? I think not.

dizerner

Re: "The Time is at Hand"

Post by dizerner » Mon Jun 22, 2015 6:25 pm

So, the key would be to see what the day of the Lord means elsewhere in scripture. It turns out that it has always meant a military or national disaster brought on as a point of judgment by God.
Any student of Scripture should know this is completely false.

Enter into the rock, and hide in the dust,
From the terror of the Lord
And the glory of His majesty.
The lofty looks of man shall be humbled,
The haughtiness of men shall be bowed down,
And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day.
For the day of the Lord of hosts
Shall come upon everything proud and lofty
...
The loftiness of man shall be bowed down,
And the haughtiness of men shall be brought low;
The Lord alone will be exalted in that day,
But the idols He shall utterly abolish.
They shall go into the holes of the rocks,
And into the caves of the earth,
From the terror of the Lord
And the glory of His majesty,
When He arises to shake the earth mightily.


Wail, for the day of the Lord is at hand!
It will come as destruction from the Almighty.
Therefore all hands will be limp,
Every man’s heart will melt,
And they will be afraid.
Pangs and sorrows will take hold of them;
They will be in pain as a woman in childbirth;
They will be amazed at one another;
Their faces will be like flames.
Behold, the day of the Lord comes,
Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger,
To lay the land desolate;
And He will destroy its sinners from it.
For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not give their light;
The sun will be darkened in its going forth,
And the moon will not cause its light to shine.

“I will punish the world for its evil,
And the wicked for their iniquity;
I will halt the arrogance of the proud,
And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold,
A man more than the golden wedge of Ophir.
Therefore I will shake the heavens,
And the earth will move out of her place,
In the wrath of the Lord of hosts
And in the day of His fierce anger.


Behold, the Lord makes the earth empty and makes it waste,
Distorts its surface
And scatters abroad its inhabitants.
And it shall be:
...
The land shall be entirely emptied and utterly plundered,
For the Lord has spoken this word.
The earth mourns and fades away,
The world languishes and fades away;
The haughty people of the earth languish.
The earth is also defiled under its inhabitants,
Because they have transgressed the laws,
Changed the ordinance,
Broken the everlasting covenant.
Therefore the curse has devoured the earth,
And those who dwell in it are desolate.
...
Fear and the pit and the snare
Are upon you, O inhabitant of the earth.
And it shall be
That he who flees from the noise of the fear
Shall fall into the pit,
And he who comes up from the midst of the pit
Shall be caught in the snare;
For the windows from on high are open,
And the foundations of the earth are shaken.
The earth is violently broken,
The earth is split open,
The earth is shaken exceedingly.
The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard,
And shall totter like a hut;
Its transgression shall be heavy upon it,
And it will fall, and not rise again.
It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will punish on high the host of exalted ones,
And on the earth the kings of the earth.
They will be gathered together,
As prisoners are gathered in the pit,
And will be shut up in the prison;
After many days they will be punished.
Then the moon will be disgraced
And the sun ashamed;
For the Lord of hosts will reign
On Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
And before His elders, gloriously.


“I will utterly consume everything
From the face of the land,”
Says the Lord;
“I will consume man and beast;
I will consume the birds of the heavens,
The fish of the sea,
And the stumbling blocks along with the wicked.
I will cut off man from the face of the land,”
Says the Lord.
...
Be silent in the presence of the Lord God;
For the day of the Lord is at hand,
For the Lord has prepared a sacrifice;
He has invited His guests.
...
“And it shall come to pass at that time
That I will search Jerusalem with lamps,
And punish the men
Who are settled in complacency,
Who say in their heart,
‘The Lord will not do good,
Nor will He do evil.’
...
The great day of the Lord is near;
It is near and hastens quickly.
The noise of the day of the Lord is bitter;
There the mighty men shall cry out.
That day is a day of wrath
...
I will bring distress upon men,
And they shall walk like blind men,
Because they have sinned against the Lord;
Their blood shall be poured out like dust,
And their flesh like refuse.”
Neither their silver nor their gold
Shall be able to deliver them
In the day of the Lord’s wrath;
But the whole land shall be devoured
By the fire of His jealousy,
For He will make speedy riddance
Of all those who dwell in the land.
...
Gather yourselves together, yes, gather together,
O undesirable nation,
Before the decree is issued,
Or the day passes like chaff,
Before the Lord’s fierce anger comes upon you,
Before the day of the Lord’s anger comes upon you!
Seek the Lord, all you meek of the earth,
Who have upheld His justice.
Seek righteousness, seek humility.
It may be that you will be hidden
In the day of the Lord’s anger.


The amount of "spiritualizing" that robby above so decries will need to become legion to make everything about these passages refer to a "a military or national disaster." It is true they are intermixed with local and temporal judgments but in the midst of that they clearly transcend to the Final Great Judgment of all flesh in which this world and created order will pass away.

Now Peter confirmed this understanding and wrote the following:

“Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

If Peter truly knew the Day of Lord would come in his own lifetime, as you assert, why would he even both to answer this way. Then Peter says:

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

A military and national disaster? That is some crazy hyperbole. But Peter goes on:

Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation,as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you

How can any rational and sincere person interpret this to mean anything but the entire destruction of this created order and the establishment of a new one in the afterlife? I can't countenance anyone who is either, that deceived, or that dishonest, and I would count it an actual heresy. Now what did our beloved brother Paul write about the Day of the Lord?

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of the Lord had come. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Alright, Paul, I won't let any man deceive me!

God bless!

dwilkins
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Re: "The Time is at Hand"

Post by dwilkins » Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:31 pm

It would have been courteous of you to provide the references to Isaiah, Zechariah, and Zephaniah. But, I think it's interesting that those would have been the passages I would have used to make my point. They are prophecies made in real history, and that were fulfilled by real events in real history. To make them mean otherwise would be to spiritualize them, literally. Since you admit that these judgments are part of temporal judgments, the burden of proof is on you to establish that these terms are used to define something outside of that in these verses. On the other hand, I'd argue that the New Testament authors used the terms that they knew to describe the fact that another national judgement was on the horizon. Daniel and the New Testament authors assert that the individual judgment of the dead at the end of the age would happen at the same time as a day of the Lord judgment against Israel, but that's not the same thing as saying that the day of the Lord is simply a judgement against dead men at the end of time (and idea not found in scripture).

If you'd like, I could repeat again my analysis of stoicheia, which I argue means the fundamental components of idol worship including the demonic forces behind the idols and the works associated with people doing the worship. I've done so before, but if you prefer me to do it again I will. The bottom line is that the melting of the physical universe was not Peter's point. It also wasn't Paul's point, and he's the one who defined the term for Peter.

I don't think it's fair or reasonable for you to call me a liar. I have explained my point here and in the past. Your position is incoherent and displays a juvenile ignorance of Old Testament prophecy in my opinion.

Doug

dizerner

Re: "The Time is at Hand"

Post by dizerner » Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:12 am

dwilkins wrote:It would have been courteous of you to provide the references to Isaiah, Zechariah, and Zephaniah.
I'm not sure I'd even want to talk to someone who couldn't even locate these passages in his Bible. :roll:
But, I think it's interesting that those would have been the passages I would have used to make my point. They are prophecies made in real history, and that were fulfilled by real events in real history. To make them mean otherwise would be to spiritualize them, literally.
Nonsense. If you don't take the "literal" meaning, then you are spiritualizing. You can't shift the goalposts just to fit your doctrine.

1. DId all flesh die, including all birds and fish?
2. Did the heavens and earth shake violently and pass away?

No and no. Sorry, but the "spiritualizing" card is on you, and you alone.
Since you admit that these judgments are part of temporal judgments, the burden of proof is on you to establish that these terms are used to define something outside of that in these verses.

I just wrote what the verses say, friend. If you want to say they mean something else, the burden is on you, surely? I have one question:

1. Do the passages above, taken literally, fit the final judgment described in the NT? Yes or no.
On the other hand, I'd argue that the New Testament authors used the terms that they knew to describe the fact that another national judgement was on the horizon.

Annnnd in comes your speculation and eisegesis to make everything fit your pet doctrine.
Daniel and the New Testament authors assert that the individual judgment of the dead at the end of the age would happen at the same time as a day of the Lord judgment against Israel, but that's not the same thing as saying that the day of the Lord is simply a judgement against dead men at the end of time (and idea not found in scripture).
Yes, it is an idea found in Scripture. This following passage precisely parallels and echoes the exact same ideas found in the prophetic passages quoted above:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, xhe was thrown into the lake of fire.
If you'd like, I could repeat again my analysis of stoicheia, which I argue means the fundamental components of idol worship including the demonic forces behind the idols and the works associated with people doing the worship. I've done so before, but if you prefer me to do it again I will. The bottom line is that the melting of the physical universe was not Peter's point. It also wasn't Paul's point, and he's the one who defined the term for Peter.
Of course it was Peter's point, otherwise why did he say we look for a new one? You are twisting the plain meaning to fit your Preterism.
I don't think it's fair or reasonable for you to call me a liar. I have explained my point here and in the past. Your position is incoherent and displays a juvenile ignorance of Old Testament prophecy in my opinion.
I didn't call you a liar. I called you either dishonest or deceived. So it's not "fair or reasonable" for you to say I called you a liar, is it? Everything I said is coherent, and maybe that's why it upsets you so much, I don't know. You didn't demonstrate one place where it was incoherent, or explain why it's not coherent, so you're basically just "asserting" you "win" with no evidence. That kind of debate is acceptable on a playground I guess, but I don't think you could expect me to accept it as a thinking, serious and respectful student of God's Word. If my exegeting carefully and methodically the OT passages on the day of the Lord is "juvenile ignorance," and my blindly accepting forced Preterism is somehow "the perfect and pure wisdom of God" (I guess), than I'll be perfectly happy to be called a fool for Christ.

God bless,
a fool for God's Word

dwilkins
Posts: 647
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:54 pm

Re: "The Time is at Hand"

Post by dwilkins » Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:43 am

I think you have a fundamentally flawed view of how the writers of the Old Testament used language (and thus, how the Jews who wrote the New Testament did so). I'll base my argument initially on 2nd Samuel 22:

2 Samuel 22:2-51 (ESV)
2 He said, "The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer,

[Is God literally a rock or fortress? No.]

3 my God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and my refuge, my savior; you save me from violence.

[Is God literally a rock, hole in the ground, shield, or horn? No. In both of these cases so far we are seeing metaphorical language to describe God]

4 I call upon the Lord, who is worthy to be praised, and I am saved from my enemies.
5 "For the waves of death encompassed me, the torrents of destruction assailed me;

[Were actual waves attacking David? Or rivers? No. It's metaphor and hyperbole]

6 the cords of Sheol entangled me; the snares of death confronted me.

[Does the grave actually have strings or snares? No. It's metaphor and hyperbole]

7 "In my distress I called upon the Lord; to my God I called. From his temple he heard my voice, and my cry came to his ears.

[Does God have ears? No. It's an anthropomorphism]

8 "Then the earth reeled and rocked; the foundations of the heavens trembled and quaked, because he was angry.

[Did the earth literally reel and rock, or the foundations of heaven (whatever that might be) quake? No. It's metaphor and possibly allusion to mysterious characters]

9 Smoke went up from his nostrils, and devouring fire from his mouth; glowing coals flamed forth from him.

[Did smoke shoot from God's nose? Does he have a nose? Or, fire from his mouth? Does he have a mouth? No. It's hyperbolic metaphor]

10 He bowed the heavens and came down; thick darkness was under his feet.

[Did the heavens change shape? Does God have feet? And, what kind of darkness exists under the feet he doesn't actually have?]

I could keep going. This is what it looks like when God does something in history. In this case Saul lost a battle and was stabbed on a mountain top.



Let's look at Isaiah 34 for a minute:

Isaiah 34:1-6 (ESV)
1 Draw near, O nations, to hear, and give attention, O peoples! Let the earth hear, and all that fills it; the world, and all that comes from it.
2 For the Lord is enraged against all the nations, and furious against all their host; he has devoted them to destruction, has given them over for slaughter.
3 Their slain shall be cast out, and the stench of their corpses shall rise; the mountains shall flow with their blood.
4 All the host of heaven shall rot away, and the skies roll up like a scroll. All their host shall fall, as leaves fall from the vine, like leaves falling from the fig tree.
5 For my sword has drunk its fill in the heavens; behold, it descends for judgment upon Edom, upon the people I have devoted to destruction.
6 The Lord has a sword; it is sated with blood; it is gorged with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah, a great slaughter in the land of Edom.

I won't pick apart this passage point by point. But, I will point out that Edom was in fact conquered by the Babylonians when they invaded in association with the 586BC destruction of Jersusalem. When Edom was destroyed in a military invasion "the sky rolled up like a scroll" (v.4) and God's sword was "drunk with blood" (v.5). This is obvious metaphorical hyperbole designed to make a dramatic point. You seem to be saying that this must have happened literally in some sense, or that any New Testament version of it must be a literal event of the universe being melted. My question would be, if a national disaster through a military invasion was good enough to fulfill the first iteration of the prophecy, why shouldn't later language be fulfilled the same way?

Doug

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robbyyoung
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Re: "The Time is at Hand"

Post by robbyyoung » Wed Jun 24, 2015 5:36 am

dizerner wrote:
robby wrote:Yeshua isn't speaking randomly into the air, NO, He's looking into the eyes of the ones asking the questions and pulling them into the response, for THEY will be instrumental in the answers given. So we read in Matt 24: 36
These Apostles were the seed and foundation of his future Church, the rock cut out not by human hands. When Yeshua looked into the eyes of Peter, he was by extension looking right into my eyes, because I believe in Yeshua through the words of Peter testifying to his life and message. And what does Yeshua himself say:

"I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word"

Did Yeshua pray for me that day, robby?
Hi dizerner,

I'm going to be pithy. First off, Yes, I believe Yeshua prayed for all those who would believe in HIM through THEIR word. So let's take another look at this statement:

"I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word."

THEIR "word" consisted of many things, and the timing/signs of Yeshua's Coming was one of them. As you know, they got their information from Yeshua Himself:

"But the one who endures to the end will be saved." Matt 24:13
"So also, when YOU(Peter, James, John and Andrew - for sure) see ALL THESE THINGS, YOU KNOW that he is near, at the very gates. Matt 24:33 - "ALL THESE THINGS" consisted of His Coming!

Therefore, Yeshua unarguably qualified "The Apostles in the 1st Century", not you dizerner, to be CORRECT, not mistaken or confused, as some would have us to believe, concerning THEIR statements of "The End Being Near" and "His Coming Again". So anyone claiming that The Apostles GOT IT WRONG, for whatever reason, is in effect saying, YESHUA MISLED THE APOSTLES! For THEY received their qualification, as witnesses to ALL THESE THINGS, by YESHUA Himself!

So who are we to believe in this historical literature of the seemingly facts? Are we to listen to unspired men up to the present or the testimony of The Authors we claim are inspired, to include Yeshua?

Every single passage concerning the nearness and pending events of the Olivet Discourse was confirmed as NEAR by the NT Writers, in which Yeshua said they would be witnesses. I fail to see how those who believe THEIR witness are now suspect as having an untenable understanding, when those who undermine their witness get a free pass, very strange indeed, but isn't that just like churchianity?!

God Bless.

steve7150
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Re: "The Time is at Hand"

Post by steve7150 » Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:34 am

"But the one who endures to the end will be saved." Matt 24:13
"So also, when YOU(Peter, James, John and Andrew - for sure) see ALL THESE THINGS, YOU KNOW that he is near, at the very gates. Matt 24:33 - "ALL THESE THINGS" consisted of His Coming!









No "all these things" consist of the topic of conversation which was the destruction of the temple and of Jerusalem.

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robbyyoung
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"The Time is at Hand"

Post by robbyyoung » Wed Jun 24, 2015 7:36 am

steve7150 wrote:"But the one who endures to the end will be saved." Matt 24:13
"So also, when YOU(Peter, James, John and Andrew - for sure) see ALL THESE THINGS, YOU KNOW that he is near, at the very gates. Matt 24:33 - "ALL THESE THINGS" consisted of His Coming!









No "all these things" consist of the topic of conversation which was the destruction of the temple and of Jerusalem.
Hi steve7150,

No, you are mistaken. All three questions were answered and THEY were to be witnesses in ALL THREE answers to the questions. At least
The Blasphemous C.S. Lewis was honest in his remarks regarding the rational reading of the literature. His confusion, that led to his ridiculous remarks, lies in "The How" ALL THESE THINGS would take place, not the timing or witnesses of the events Yeshua insisted on.

“Say what you like," we shall be told [by some critics], "the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, 'This generation shall not pass till all these things be done.' And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else." [Here the imaginary critics end speaking. CS Lewis begins next.]

It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible. Yet how teasing, also, that within fourteen words of it should come the statement "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." The one exhibition of error and the one confession of ignorance grow side by side.


Yeshua and The Apostles have the last word. Those who wish to indulge in this type of unbelief, are the ones who's understanding and position is UNTENABLE, as if uninspired men has the last word :? .

God Bless.

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Paidion
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Re: "The Time is at Hand"

Post by Paidion » Wed Jun 24, 2015 4:26 pm

The Blasphemous C.S. Lewis...
In what way was Lewis blasphemous?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

dizerner

Re: "The Time is at Hand"

Post by dizerner » Wed Jun 24, 2015 5:36 pm

'This generation shall not pass till all these things be done.'
It's so obvious the Lord meant the generation he was talking about in his dialogue, not the current one. He was including encouragement to that generation to hold on to the end, because "unless those days were not shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." What's the immediately preceding verse? "So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates." Christ says everyone will see the second coming, Christ says the final judgment will take place after it happens, all in this same passage.

It's like that verse "I come to bring a sword" and people use it to say Christ preached violence. Sloppy reading, sloppy exegesis.

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