"The Time is at Hand"

End Times
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TheEditor
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"The Time is at Hand"

Post by TheEditor » Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:11 pm

Greetings,

I'm not sure if Steve dealt with this in his 4 Views book, and I'm having trouble locating it right now in the clutter that is my library (so-called), but something I have wondered about for a long time I'd like to toss out here for discussion.

When Jesus commenced his preaching, he preached "Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Later, when he was instructing his disciples about what to do after he left and before he returned, he stated:

"See that you are not led astray. For many will come in my name, saying, 'I am he!' and, 'The time is at hand!' Do not go after them."

Particularly for the Preterist, but really for anyone reading the Scriptures, but I guess I single out Preterists since they believe that the words of Revelation were particularly germane to the 1st century, how should or would the disciples have been expected to view the words of the Revelation light of Jesus' warning above:

Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev. 1:3

And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. Rev. 22:10

Why would a believer that had heard Jesus' warnings about just these words be considered culpable for rejecting the Revelation? Any thoughts?

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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dizerner
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Re: "The Time is at Hand"

Post by dizerner » Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:58 pm

From a non-Preterist point of view: I don't think the false prophets were only wrong for simply saying the time is at hand—that part is true. It's their application of the truth, to follow after them, or to give a set date, like 88 reasons in '88, and so somehow bring in error with truth, which is how most error comes—mixed with some truth. Oddly enough when Mormons have come a'knockin' they don't start out with, "Hi, we stand for the Mormon faith. We believe God the Father used to be a human living on the earth and humans can become Gods exactly the same way he did in the future," or any other number of their strange beliefs. No they try to parrot mainline evangelicals and say something about Jesus being Savior and believing in the Bible. Indeed perhaps the point of the whole passage is that false teachers will try to mix truth in to make their doctrine seem more legit. Believers are culpable for ignoring the Word of God because the Holy Spirit witnesses to it, otherwise we cannot know any metaphysical truth claim, or even that Jesus is the Christ. To think that John the Apostle would be a false Christ leading people astray—well that's not any real believer's radar.
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robbyyoung
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Re: "The Time is at Hand"

Post by robbyyoung » Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:23 pm

TheEditor wrote:Greetings,

I'm not sure if Steve dealt with this in his 4 Views book, and I'm having trouble locating it right now in the clutter that is my library (so-called), but something I have wondered about for a long time I'd like to toss out here for discussion.

When Jesus commenced his preaching, he preached "Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Hi Brenden,

Yes He did say this, however, He also said this, "(Luke 11:20) If I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you."

This is a classic case of "The Already but Not Yet" teaching in scripture regarding The Kingdom, and the "End of the Age" components.
TheEditor wrote:Later, when he was instructing his disciples about what to do after he left and before he returned, he stated:

"See that you are not led astray. For many will come in my name, saying, 'I am he!' and, 'The time is at hand!' Do not go after them."
So they (The Disciples) could be misled by a premature announcement, right?
This conversation took place in approximately 32 A.D., right?

This is why the 12 Disciples were so important on every level. They alone held the inspired office to know and proclaim scripture as being fulfilled. Therefore, we read some 30 or so years later in their ministry an amazing proclamation “The Time Is Near!”

1 Peter 4:7
1 John 2:18-20

It took approximately 30 years to weed out the false prophets and their premature predictions concerning "The End", which was the fulfillment of the Old Covenant system that ushered in The New Covenant, in the 1st Century.

Basically, Jesus was saying, "See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time is near.’ 30 years too soon! Do not go after them.

Therefore, if short of 30 years was a premature declaration, then what in the world makes close to 2000 years!!!!! And worst yet – Peter and John are guilty of the charge of MISLEADING people!
TheEditor wrote:Particularly for the Preterist, but really for anyone reading the Scriptures, but I guess I single out Preterists since they believe that the words of Revelation were particularly germane to the 1st century, how should or would the disciples have been expected to view the words of the Revelation light of Jesus' warning above:
Ed Stevens did a wonderful job in chronicling the dates and historical evidence concerning the NT Writings in his latest book, Final Decade Before The End. Peter and John's declaration was about 2 years before The Neronic Persecution - 64 and The War in 66 A.D., therefore, The Revelation was completed in the same time frame, most likely, before their writings, Persecution and The War (63-64 A.D.) The Neronic Persecution stopped all literary advances in 64.
"The fact that their writings came to an abrupt end before 70, and we hear no more from them after that, tells us that they must have died. Final Decade Before The End Ed Stevens pg. 149"
Everything was coming to a head, very quickly, and anyone who reads the account, as a 1st Century observer, can clearly sense and see this in every single writing of the NT Authors. The only "END" in view is the end of that Old Covenant Age, and it happened just as it was foretold, both physically and spiritually.
TheEditor wrote:Why would a believer that had heard Jesus' warnings about just these words be considered culpable for rejecting the Revelation?
I'm not sure of what you are saying here?

God Bless.

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TheEditor
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Re: "The Time is at Hand"

Post by TheEditor » Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:38 pm

Hi Robby,

You wrote:
TheEditor wrote:
Particularly for the Preterist, but really for anyone reading the Scriptures, but I guess I single out Preterists since they believe that the words of Revelation were particularly germane to the 1st century, how should or would the disciples have been expected to view the words of the Revelation light of Jesus' warning above:



Ed Stevens did a wonderful job in chronicling the dates and historical evidence concerning the NT Writings in his latest book, Final Decade Before The End. Peter and John's declaration was about 2 years before The Neronic Persecution - 64 and The War in 66 A.D., therefore, The Revelation was completed in the same time frame, most likely, before their writings, Persecution and The War (63-64 A.D.) The Neronic Persecution stopped all literary advances in 64.

"The fact that their writings came to an abrupt end before 70, and we hear no more from them after that, tells us that they must have died. Final Decade Before The End Ed Stevens pg. 149"


I don't want to shift the discussion because it doesn't have to do with the question. There may have been a lack of writings from that period, but the idea there were no true Christians on earth after 70 is a fiction that can be easily disproven.

TheEditor wrote:
Why would a believer that had heard Jesus' warnings about just these words be considered culpable for rejecting the Revelation?



I'm not sure of what you are saying here?


Just that. If I said to you "Don't listen to anyone that says the time is near at hand" and then someone comes to you 30 years later (according to Preterist dating of Revelation) and says "the time is near at hand"--twice, in the same parchment, why would a person accept it,?

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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robbyyoung
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Re: "The Time is at Hand"

Post by robbyyoung » Fri Jun 19, 2015 8:04 pm

TheEditor wrote:Just that. If I said to you "Don't listen to anyone that says the time is near at hand" and then someone comes to you 30 years later (according to Preterist dating of Revelation) and says "the time is near at hand"--twice, in the same parchment, why would a person accept it,?
Hi Brenden,

Yeshua wasn't talking to just anybody in general; He was specifically talking to His Disciples and what THEY needed to know regarding THEIR ministry. Yeshua then proceeds to tell THEM what signs THEY were to look for regarding "The End of the Age". The Holy Spirit would teach THEM and bring all things back to THEIR remembrance.

So who in the world is left to proclaim, correctly, "The End is Near" besides the TRUE Disciples?

As you know, THOSE who rejected THEIR warnings ended up TOAST and LOST when the "End of the Age" came!
TheEditor wrote:I don't want to shift the discussion because it doesn't have to do with the question. There may have been a lack of writings from that period, but the idea there were no true Christians on earth after 70 is a fiction that can be easily disproven.
Really? How do you know who is saved or not? THESE people, in the 1st Century, were warned over and over to preserver all the way up to the end, and if THEY didn't, THEY would miss out on the rewards of salvation at His coming! Whoever you have in mind regarding this "easily disproven" premise is nothing more than speculation against the timing witness of scripture. But like you said, let's not shift the discussion.

God Bless.

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Re: "The Time is at Hand"

Post by Jose » Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:09 pm

Hi Brenden,
I was a full preterist for a few short years before most of American Christianity had ever heard of the word preterist, but I abandoned the position when advocates began spiritualizing the resurrection and final judgment.

That is a good question that I had not thought of, and I haven't an answer, but the only thing that comes to mind right now is that perhaps John and the other apostles had the authority and could claim the destruction of Jerusalem as being near but the difference being that they were not claiming to be Jesus.
Last edited by Jose on Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "The Time is at Hand"

Post by dwilkins » Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:24 am

I can't see where there would be any kind of crisis. Jesus told the Disciples not to believe it if someone said they'd physically seen Christ on earth, and not to follow after them if someone else was saying "the time is at hand" (presumably so that they wouldn't assign the elements of the prophecy too early, as Hymaneaus seems to have done). Jesus also told them that they were going to receive the Spirit and that the Spirit would bring everything he'd taught them to remembrance, as well as teach them prophecy they hadn't heard yet. Being Apostles, and so certified leaders at that point, they had the authority to pass on this information. Others didn't. Where's the crisis?

Doug

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Paidion
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Re: "The Time is at Hand"

Post by Paidion » Sat Jun 20, 2015 2:22 pm

Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; "nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 17:20,21 NKJV)

Not "within their hearts" as some think. Jesus was addressing the Pharisees who certainly didn't have the kingdom "within their hearts."
A kingdom consists of a king and his subjects. In the matter of the kingdom of God, Jesus was the king, and his disciples were his subjects. Thus the kingdom was right there within the Pharisees in the sense of being within their midst.

But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither enter yourselves, nor allow those who would enter to go in. (Matthew 23:13)

Jesus then gave seven "woes" to the Pharisees. He also said:

You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? (Matthew 23:33)
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. (John 8:44)
.

Jesus’ Kingdom Parables

Entering the Kingdom
"The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up; then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls, who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it.Matt 13:44-46


When a person recognizes the exceeding value of the Kingdom, and the quintessence of entering it, he will gladly let go of all of his own aims and ambitions for the sake of the Kingdom.

The Growth of the Kingdom
Another parable he put before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed which a man took and sowed in his field; it is the smallest of all seeds, but when it has grown it is the greatest of shrubs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches."
He told them another parable. "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven which a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened." Matt 13:31-33


The Purification of the Kingdom at Christ’s Coming
Another parable he put before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed darnel among the wheat, and went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the darnel appeared also. And the servants of the householder came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then has it darnel?’

He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’

But he said, ‘No; lest in gathering the darnel you root up the wheat along with them.

Let both grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the darnel first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’" Matt 13:24-30


Jesus Himself explained this parable:

Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the darnel of the field.
"
He answered, "He who sows the good seed is the Son of man; the field is the world, and the good seed means the sons of the kingdom; the darnel are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels.

Just as the darnel are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. Matt 13:36-43
Paidion

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Re: "The Time is at Hand"

Post by robbyyoung » Sat Jun 20, 2015 4:05 pm

Paidion wrote:Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; "nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 17:20,21 NKJV)

Not "within their hearts" as some think. Jesus was addressing the Pharisees who certainly didn't have the kingdom "within their hearts."
A kingdom consists of a king and his subjects. In the matter of the kingdom of God, Jesus was the king, and his disciples were his subjects. Thus the kingdom was right there within the Pharisees in the sense of being within their midst.

But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither enter yourselves, nor allow those who would enter to go in. (Matthew 23:13)

Jesus then gave seven "woes" to the Pharisees. He also said:

You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? (Matthew 23:33)
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. (John 8:44)
.

Jesus’ Kingdom Parables

Entering the Kingdom
"The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up; then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls, who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it.Matt 13:44-46


When a person recognizes the exceeding value of the Kingdom, and the quintessence of entering it, he will gladly let go of all of his own aims and ambitions for the sake of the Kingdom.

The Growth of the Kingdom
Another parable he put before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed which a man took and sowed in his field; it is the smallest of all seeds, but when it has grown it is the greatest of shrubs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches."
He told them another parable. "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven which a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened." Matt 13:31-33


The Purification of the Kingdom at Christ’s Coming
Another parable he put before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field; but while men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed darnel among the wheat, and went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the darnel appeared also. And the servants of the householder came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then has it darnel?’

He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’

But he said, ‘No; lest in gathering the darnel you root up the wheat along with them.

Let both grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the darnel first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’" Matt 13:24-30


Jesus Himself explained this parable:

Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the darnel of the field.
"
He answered, "He who sows the good seed is the Son of man; the field is the world, and the good seed means the sons of the kingdom; the darnel are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels.

Just as the darnel are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. Matt 13:36-43
Hey Bro,

What does any of this have to do with the OP?

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TheEditor
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Re: "The Time is at Hand"

Post by TheEditor » Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:22 pm

I thought I posted earlier, but now as I look my response to Doug is missing....hmmm, anyway, I'll try again.

Hi Doug,

I don't think I said "crisis." My point is that they were to test inspired expressions, the test being whether they professed Jesus as having come in the flesh, as opposed to, I assume, the spirit. However, anyone could draft a document saying "Jesus came in the flesh" and then proceed to prognosticate about the end coming in 5 years. So, it seems wisdom is needed to discern "inspired expressions." Therfore, when you have a warning from Jesus to "not go after" people that say "the time is at hand", and then lo (according to Preterists) some 30 years later a writing appears that says "an angel out of heaven" says "the time is at hand", how could a Christian be excoriated for thinking it suspect? Besides, some argue that John the Apostle didn't write it. If that is true (and I am not saying it is) then wouldn't that also be something for a first century Christian to contend with? I don't think the question has been answered.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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