Did Christ teach that we should watch for the end times?

End Times
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Ryan07
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Re: Did Christ teach that we should watch for the end times?

Post by Ryan07 » Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:26 am

I suppose when people base their entire faith off the idea that the end is about to happen then they feel really threatened by the idea that that might not even matter. I mean if you are less concerned with how you live your life now and more concerned with what is going to happen next then how are you even living for Jesus?
It's pretty unfair and ridiculous to call someone a "false teacher" simply because you disagree with a few theological points. I suppose being a Christian can't fix everything. For whatever reason I was eager to shed dispensationalism out of my theology. Other people's faith is dependent upon it.

dwilkins
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Re: Did Christ teach that we should watch for the end times?

Post by dwilkins » Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:24 am

Steve,

I have two areas where I think that your position on eschatology would be key to understanding Christian actions in the world. First, Paul's arguments in places like 1st Cor. 7 are based on an anticipated catastrophe. He specifically tells people not to get married because of the persecution pressure that he expects they are about to enter. I take that pressure as eschatological. But, even if you don't the reality is that different advice on things such as marriage might exist in different eras of the church, so that we aren't under a single, flattened rule for life.

Second, it is a common criticism of dispensationalism that the followers of it have no interest in the kingdom of God because they don't want to "polish brass on a sinking ship". Therefore, a person's eschatology is critical in how he sees the need to work at expanding the kingdom (as opposed to just trying to save people). By extension, if I'm right that we are in the millennium, but that there is no end to the Christian age foretold in scripture then there is an even higher (really, the maximum possible) motivation for things like environmental preservation. I don't think that traditional Amillennialism can approach this perspective because even though they see us as being in the millennium now, no matter what happens the physical universe is destroyed and rebuilt. From my perspective humans will be on this earth for thousands and thousands of years (maybe millions) into the future, and this view of eschatology has a significant impact on how I think we should be treating each other and the environment.

Doug

dwilkins
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Re: Did Christ teach that we should watch for the end times?

Post by dwilkins » Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:29 am

Homer wrote:Doug,

But there is nothing in the context to rule out the universal application of this statement of Jesus:

John 5:28-29 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

28. Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29. and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

It strains credulity to claim this statement of Jesus has been fulfilled.
I'm not sure that I can make a powerful enough argument to "rule out" a universal application, but I do think it's not very likely. John 5:28-29 is a reference to Daniel 12:1-4. That passage in Daniel is held by a number of major Partial Preterists (Gentry, etc.) to have been fulfilled in the catastrophe of the 1st Century. They'd say that Daniel 12 is associated directly with the Roman war, and was fulfilled at that time (though fewer would admit that there is a connection, obvious though it may be, to John 5). If the two are connected, and the standard Partial Preterist view says that Daniel 12 already happened, then, though it might be wrong, it shouldn't strain credulity to say that that it has. The issue would be how to explain it, which I'd suggest has to do with a judgment in heaven as described in Rev. 20, which by nature wouldn't be something visible on earth.

Doug

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robbyyoung
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Re: Did Christ teach that we should watch for the end times?

Post by robbyyoung » Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:00 am

Homer wrote:Doug,

You wrote:
The answer, generally, is that we try to make every passage of the NT apply to us. It's popular to assume that all of the promises can apply to us directly (as I was recently advised by a friend of mine). But, this is presumptuous.
I agree completely.

and:
The universalizing of texts outside of the specific context causes all sorts of confusion.
But there is nothing in the context to rule out the universal application of this statement of Jesus:

John 5:28-29 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

28. Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29. and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

It strains credulity to claim this statement of Jesus has been fulfilled.
Not so fast there Homer... Context destroys your misapplication of the "Nature and Timing" of this resurrection. Let's back up to vs. 15, who was Jesus addressing? The Jews who were persecuting Him (vs.16 & 18). Therefore, Jesus begins to address THESE "JEWS" directly and with special emphasis so that there is NO mistaken who He's talking too (the term: truly, truly I say to YOU [The Jews in the audience] - vs.19,24, & 25). So get YOURSELF out of the immediate context!

Next, in vs.24 Jesus tells "The Jewish audience" they can experience a resurrection right now, by believing in Him. Better yet, in vs.25 Jesus says, THIS Jewish Audience will experience an hour, IN THEIR FUTURE, of resurrection. But it will be of the SAME NATURE "THEY" are currently witnessing. For Jesus said, "an hour is coming AND NOW IS...". This resurrection was happening right then and there! This is why Jesus told THEM in vs.28, Not To Marvel, it's going to happen to these Jews dead or alive. It's Their generation is time frame as vs.45 reemphasizes.

God Bless!

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steve
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Re: Did Christ teach that we should watch for the end times?

Post by steve » Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:28 am

robby,

I am not seeing how any of the verses you reference can be said to make your point. The fact that Jesus was speaking to someone (as all speeches are made to someone) tells us little or nothing about the application of His words beyond His immediate audience.

When Jesus says "All who are in the graves" (not, like Daniel 12, "many of them that sleep in the dust") it sounds like He is speaking of a universal experience of all dead bodies.

The sense in which His statement applies in the present (the "and now is" reference) seems to be in the spiritual regeneration of the spiritually dead. Verse 28, however, speaks those who are in the graves, which would seem to mean dead bodies.

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robbyyoung
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Re: Did Christ teach that we should watch for the end times?

Post by robbyyoung » Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:50 pm

steve wrote:robby,

I am not seeing how any of the verses you reference can be said to make your point. The fact that Jesus was speaking to someone (as all speeches are made to someone) tells us little or nothing about the application of His words beyond His immediate audience.

When Jesus says "All who are in the graves" (not, like Daniel 12, "many of them that sleep in the dust") it sounds like He is speaking of a universal experience of all dead bodies.

The sense in which His statement applies in the present (the "and now is" reference) seems to be in the spiritual regeneration of the spiritually dead. Verse 28, however, speaks those who are in the graves, which would seem to mean dead bodies.
Steve, your statement says it all, "The fact that Jesus was speaking to someone (as all speeches are made to someone) tells us little or nothing about the application of His words beyond His immediate audience."

Does context mean anything? Was He NOT talking and predicting outcomes to His "Then" listeners? You may want to believe He's talking to YOU, but He's NOT. This is where futurists will forever see themselves in private and public discourses of scripture. It really doesn't matter who Jesus or anybody else was addressing, "I'M THE TRUE BENEFICIARY", says the futurists. Like I said before, post 70 A.D., would 100, 500, 1000, or 2000 years removed convince others of the integrity of the time statements? The answer is NO! Well how about 1 million years from now? The answer would probably still be NO!

Either way, the most important point is to live our lives as unto YAHWEH until the day we physically die. And we shall all meet this obligation, post 70 A.D.

God Bless!

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TheEditor
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Re: Did Christ teach that we should watch for the end times?

Post by TheEditor » Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:22 pm

Hmmmm,

Do we have then the right to "cherry pick" what applied to the listeners and what extends to all of his disciples? This would, I think, put full-preterists on the horns of a dilemna.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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robbyyoung
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Re: Did Christ teach that we should watch for the end times?

Post by robbyyoung » Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:01 pm

TheEditor wrote:Hmmmm,

Do we have then the right to "cherry pick" what applied to the listeners and what extends to all of his disciples? This would, I think, put full-preterists on the horns of a dilemna.

Regards, Brenden.
What???

Pretty broad statement without anything to back it up. Nevertheless, it doesn't apply in this case at all. Futurist's surely convoluted the 1st Century last days message to it's hearers, even to the extent of robbing those, of the era, of the promises clearly made to them; and claiming it as their own. For example; THEY were being persecuted, jailed, killed and were promised relief and vindication if THEY stayed the course; even a lucky few wouldn't taste death. Thank God we can't rob them of the promises made and THEY were and are blessed forever more. After reading THEIR account, futurism/dispy is a thing of the past for me.

God Bless!

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TheEditor
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Re: Did Christ teach that we should watch for the end times?

Post by TheEditor » Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:12 pm

Do we have then the right to "cherry pick" what applied to the listeners and what extends to all of his disciples? This would, I think, put full-preterists on the horns of a dilemna.

Regards, Brenden.

What???

Pretty broad statement without anything to back it up. Nevertheless, it doesn't apply in this case at all. Futurist's surely convoluted the 1st Century last days message to it's hearers, even to the extent of robbing those, of the era, of the promises clearly made to them; and claiming it as their own. For example; THEY were being persecuted, jailed, killed and were promised relief and vindication if THEY stayed the course; even a lucky few wouldn't taste death. Thank God we can't rob them of the promises made and THEY were and are blessed forever more. After reading THEIR account, futurism/dispy is a thing of the past for me.

God Bless!

Hi Robby,

I'm not exactly sure what was so "broad" in my statement? Seems to me the "broadness" of a thing should be measured by how much is summarily dismissed as "for them". I'm curious if there is anything in Full-Preterism that allows for anything written in the first century to apply to believers after that time? Are you saying that all of the Epistles were written before 70 AD?

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

dwilkins
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Re: Did Christ teach that we should watch for the end times?

Post by dwilkins » Thu Jun 19, 2014 3:18 am

Homer wrote:Doug,

John 5:28-29 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

28. Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29. and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

It strains credulity to claim this statement of Jesus has been fulfilled.
I thought I'd point out one other verse that addresses the issue directly:

Acts 24:15 (YLT)
15 having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous; (~AD60)

Doug

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