Did Christ teach that we should watch for the end times?

End Times
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robbyyoung
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Re: Did Christ teach that we should watch for the end times?

Post by robbyyoung » Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:02 am

dwilkins wrote:
Homer wrote:Doug,

John 5:28-29 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

28. Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29. and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

It strains credulity to claim this statement of Jesus has been fulfilled.
I thought I'd point out one other verse that addresses the issue directly:

Acts 24:15 (YLT)
15 having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous; (~AD60)

Doug
Very nice addition Doug.

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steve
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Re: Did Christ teach that we should watch for the end times?

Post by steve » Thu Jun 19, 2014 11:03 am

Does anyone here know a case in scripture where the Greek mello ("about to") does not refer to something that did not occur immediately? I am in Hawaii without my lexical library and can't look it up. However, I recall finding places (e.g., in the LXX) where God in the prophets would say "I am about to..." but He was talking about a very distant event. I realize I am of little help without the references, but someone else may know of such.

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TheEditor
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Re: Did Christ teach that we should watch for the end times?

Post by TheEditor » Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:05 pm

Hi Steve,

It appears via my resources that it might take a bit to sort through the words and their context, however a quick look through Strong's yielded this, for what it's worth:

For He did not subject to angels the world to come, concerning which we are speaking. -- Hebrews 2:5

Strong's defines the word this way:

G3195
μέλλω
mellō
mel'-lo
A strengthened form of G3199 (through the idea of expectation); to intend, that is, be about to be, do, or suffer something (of persons or things, especially events; in the sense of purpose, duty, necessity, probability, possibility, or hesitation): - about, after that, be (almost), (that which is, things, + which was for) to come, intend, was to (be), mean, mind, be at the point, (be) ready, + return, shall (begin), (which, that) should (after, afterwards, hereafter) tarry, which was for, will, would, be yet.

Of the 35 translations I considered, only 3 chose Young's rendering, which doesn't necessarily mean anything. Just saying. Roberton's adds this:

"Acts 24:15

That there shall be a resurrection (anastasin mellein esesthai). Indirect assertion with infinitive and accusative of general reference (anastasin) after the word elpida (hope). The future infinitive esesthai after mellein is also according to rule, mellō being followed by either present, aorist, or future infinitive (Robertson, Grammar, pp. 870, 877, 878).
Both of the just and the unjust (dikaiōn te kai adikōn). Apparently at the same time as in Joh_5:29 (cf. Act_17:31.). Gardner thinks that Luke here misrepresents Paul who held to no resurrection save for those “in Christ,” a mistaken interpretation of Paul in my opinion. The Talmud teaches the resurrection of Israelites only, but Paul was more than a Pharisee."

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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Homer
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Re: Did Christ teach that we should watch for the end times?

Post by Homer » Thu Jun 19, 2014 3:58 pm

Kenneth Gentry comments:
syntactically when mello appears in the future infinitive (as in Acts 24:15) it indicates certainty. We find samples of this in Josephus, classical Greek, and patristic usage. In the Arndt-Gingrich-Danker Lexicon (p. 500) we read that when mello is used with a future infinitive it “denotes certainty that an event will occur in the future.” That, and nothing more. This is why all the standard translations of the Acts 24:15 do not translate mello as expressing nearness, but simply as a future fact (NIV, NASB, NKJV, NRSV, etc.). The NASB (cited above) has an excellent rendering: “having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.”

Paul’s argument in Acts 24 supports this idiomatic usage: he is on trial for his life, having been brought to court by Jews. His clever maneuver is to divide his opponents against themselves: the Pharisees believe in a resurrection of the dead; the Sadducees do not (Acts 23:6-7). Thus, Paul argues for the certainty of the resurrection (by use of this idiomatic expression) and concludes: “For the resurrection of the dead I am on trial before you today” (Acts 24:21). He is not on trail for declaring the resurrection near, but for declaring it at all.
Read more at http://postmillennialism.com/acts-2415- ... OJEPXSk.99

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robbyyoung
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Re: Did Christ teach that we should watch for the end times?

Post by robbyyoung » Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:01 pm

Homer wrote:Kenneth Gentry comments:
syntactically when mello appears in the future infinitive (as in Acts 24:15) it indicates certainty. We find samples of this in Josephus, classical Greek, and patristic usage. In the Arndt-Gingrich-Danker Lexicon (p. 500) we read that when mello is used with a future infinitive it “denotes certainty that an event will occur in the future.” That, and nothing more. This is why all the standard translations of the Acts 24:15 do not translate mello as expressing nearness, but simply as a future fact (NIV, NASB, NKJV, NRSV, etc.). The NASB (cited above) has an excellent rendering: “having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.”

Paul’s argument in Acts 24 supports this idiomatic usage: he is on trial for his life, having been brought to court by Jews. His clever maneuver is to divide his opponents against themselves: the Pharisees believe in a resurrection of the dead; the Sadducees do not (Acts 23:6-7). Thus, Paul argues for the certainty of the resurrection (by use of this idiomatic expression) and concludes: “For the resurrection of the dead I am on trial before you today” (Acts 24:21). He is not on trail for declaring the resurrection near, but for declaring it at all.
Read more at http://postmillennialism.com/acts-2415- ... OJEPXSk.99
Paul is affirming what Yeshua said in John 5:29. This is the same resurrection that "Now Is" that will take place in the coming "Hour" the hearers will witness, 2000 years ago! You want to play scriptural gymnastics and prove futurism by saying "Certainly" other than "About To", no problem; certainly works fine because the timing is covered here, "FOR CERTAIN" - 2 Timothy 2:18! How in the world could the "Nature" of the resurrection be a VISIBLE, EARTHLY phenomenon apparent to all and at the same time disrupt the faith of those still awaiting it? "The Nature" of this event IS NOT even in question in the text, it's "The Timing" Paul refutes! It HAS NOT already taken place!

But here's the real kicker, THEY were waiting for it 2000 years ago because it was promise to take place in THEIR generation! Please read the promises made to the Thessalonians in chapter 4.

God Bless!

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steve
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Re: Did Christ teach that we should watch for the end times?

Post by steve » Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:25 pm

Yeah, Robby. Actually, I and several others that you would call futurists have read those promises, and have even studied them. Shocking as it may seem, we have not all concluded what you conclude—even when examining the same evidence. What's up with that? There are two possibilities:

1) someone is not as competent as others in biblical exegesis, or
2) someone is prejudiced as to what they will allow the passages to mean.

We may never know who is more incompetent at exegesis, but prejudice is generally not hard to spot.

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robbyyoung
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Re: Did Christ teach that we should watch for the end times?

Post by robbyyoung » Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:45 pm

steve wrote:Yeah, Robby. Actually, I and several others that you would call futurists have read those promises, and have even studied them. Shocking as it may seem, we have not all concluded what you conclude—even when examining the same evidence. What's up with that? There are two possibilities:

1) someone is not as competent as others in biblical exegesis, or
2) someone is prejudiced as to what they will allow the passages to mean.

We may never know who is more incompetent at exegesis, but prejudice is generally not hard to spot.
LOL! Please don't take offense of my "prejudice" Steve. Everyone is guilty of that but having fun discussing the matter, I enjoy! Don't get sunburned in the Aloha State :)

God Bless!

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steve
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Re: Did Christ teach that we should watch for the end times?

Post by steve » Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:32 pm

My activities in Hawaii do not usually lend themselves to the likelihood of sunburn. Mosquito bites are the real danger!

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steve
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Re: Did Christ teach that we should watch for the end times?

Post by steve » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:02 pm

But even worse than the mosquitoes were some of the unusual annoyances that I had to endure, as captured in these videos:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10 ... =2&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10 ... =2&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10 ... =2&theater

StevenD
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Re: Did Christ teach that we should watch for the end times?

Post by StevenD » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:28 pm

The following link should call up all of the verses that use the verb 'mell-o':

http://lexicon.katabiblon.com/?search=% ... E%BF%CF%82

The site itself can look a bit intimidating (especially to someone like myself who is still wading through Greek grammar), but is actually fairly simple to navigate. One helpful perk is the quick access to all verses where a given term is cited (Greek and English).

[To access all the verses in their entirety you can scroll down and punch the button that says "Fetch GNT verses" or "Fetch LXX verses".]

(I think an unabridged online version of Liddell and Scott is similarly accessible from the site.)

Although I didn't scroll through all of the verses, I think some of those found in Hebrews (esp. 10:1; 11:20; 13:14) or Matthew (11:14; 12:32) suggest that a longer duration was in mind.

By the way, :idea: is the debate between Don Preston and Brother Gregg yet available?

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