Why is UR harmful?

[steve7150]

That was their chance and they refused to change. It was their choice. God is full of compassion and will forgive all your sins using His own blood, but you must repent and accept, and it seems urgent because you may grow too hardened ay some point. The Bible uses real people, in real situations to demonstrate this message over and over.







First with regards to UR and how dangerous it is. I can't imagine anyone ever preaching UR in a gospel message to unbelievers. I was asked recently by a new believer about "those who never heard" and i said God is just and he will take everything into consideration and make righteous judgments. If she would have asked me about postmortem repentance , I would have answered "all things are possible with God", but i would not go further then that. If UR is true it is only because of God's will and purposes and not because of man's goodness.

All people are raised to judgment (Rev 20)( John 5) and both greek words "krino" and "krisis" clearly allow for reconciliation IMHO. Whether it happens and to what extent it happens is entirely up to God and exactly what it is he is going to do.

None of us know , all we can do is weigh the other parts of scripture and judge (if we are interested) which view seems to carry more substance. The UR gives more substance to God's will,purposes and character as revealed by Jesus. The other views give more substance in God's warnings of urgency and punishment.
It seems to me will will never know for sure on this side of judgment and we should simply accept the fact that we just can't figure everything out.

[Michelle]

Why is it dangerous? Because someone we know may headed towards the first group. Scripture has people refusing God all day, it is pointed out that many grow harder and may not be able to want to ever reverse their direction and disdain for goodness and holiness.

Their deeds will not allow them to return to their God. For a spirit of harlotry is within them, and they do not know the LORD. (Hosea 5:4)
They spend their days in prosperity, and suddenly they go down to Sheol. 14 “They say to God, ‘Depart from us! We do not even desire the knowledge of Your ways. 15 ‘Who is the Almighty, that we should serve Him, and what would we gain if we entreat Him?’ (Job 21:13-15)
Men must be warned, because the bible warns them that: they may allow themselves to become worse than they already are. And become so hardened and hateful towards goodness that they actually ‘become’ that way permanently. Our core being may actually become ruined. God has allowed us to ‘become’ as we want, the choice is ours.
Doesn't it seem that some people become harder and harder to convince the 'longer' you reason with them?

Isn't this true no matter what your view of hell is?

[jriccitelli]

Hi Michelle, what I said above is the exact 'opposite' of what UR is telling us. UR is saying men will become 'more' likely to respond to the Gospel, 'more' and more likely to repent, and more likely to love God and want to be Holy. My books seem to agree that men seem to grow worse, and many will grow hardened toward God. This world is a test, and tests are done to identify something. I understand UR teaches sinners will be punished, but death is different. You are still a dead person in hell (or wherever or whatever you name it), God says things for a reason, if He thinks we need to say dead: I will say dead. The sinner needs to know this. It is only fair to warn them. UR warns them of punishment, but with hope of getting through it, and hope of repenting. All the while denying verses of utter destruction, closed doors, and foolish virgins. If this additional hope is not true, it is simply not true.

[jriccitelli]

Hi 7150, I can't imagine anyone ever preaching UR in a gospel message to unbelievers either. Everything I believe about hell, eternity or CI I can say just I as I teach about any bible passage, they are all relative. I am more than willing to address the fact that those who haven’t heard the good news are still counting on their good works to save them from death, and take them to heaven.
Its ok to 'hope' some have a second chance, but if you’ve heard and rejected I cannot offer you any hope biblically speaking.

It seems to me we will never know for sure on this side of judgment and we should simply accept the fact that we just can't figure everything out.

I think the bible goes into ‘Great’ detail about death, sin, choice, Judgment and the conditions for Eternal Life. I believe the teaching of UR is the opposite message presented in the bible. If you refuse in this life, you may have made your decision already. I love people, and it would be wrong to tell them the bible teaches a different message than this: unless you believe you will die in your sins, you must believe now in order to have eternal LIFE, there is no scripture, or scenario where people are repenting post-mortem.

I suggest that it is ‘not’ loving to tell something, if it is not true. I am not making the decision for God, God is not making the decision for them, they must make the decision. All we can do is love them by telling them there is a choice, a decision, that is what the bible is saying. That is what I am saying. Because we will soon die, what our physical and physiological makeup might consist of seems really frightful. I cannot allow someone to think their senses and reasoning will all be in tact or functioning as it is now after death, in order to make such a repentant decision or such.
Thank you both for reasoning through this with me, I am learning also through all this.

[jriccitelli]

2. Why do you misrepresent universalism as removing all basis for fear from sinners, when you have so often been corrected about this? (Steve, Why is UR Harmful? 12/27/13 11:41 AM)

You are 'misinterpreting' the word 'death'. Death ‘is’ the ultimate basis for fear. God seems to think so.
I have been correcting ‘you’ on this. Sinners will be punished and wiped out forever. This is not the same as believing they will all be punished until they repent.
I talk to many Christians who see it clear as day: only believers inherit ‘life’, eternal or otherwise.
Whatever remains of sinners when they are raised: just a spirit without a body or a bodiless spirit body, or whatever, they are by the biblical definition dead and headed to the second death ‘unless’ God grants them life. And the only life afterlife known in scripture is 'eternal life'. And that Life is Only in the Son. There is 'no kinda alive', or 'almost life' mentioned, anywhere. You are either raised to Eternal life or you are standing still dead in your sins.
You have assumed that because everyone is raised at the Judgment that they are alive. The only people Jesus and NT writers affirm being ‘alive’ post death are ‘believers’. Life according to ‘all’ scripture OT and NT is conditional. You declare your different understanding in the following:

There are abundant references to temporal judgment, and the sentence of death upon sinners. Such passages are not hard to find, but none of them address the pertinent question: "What about after death?" (Steve, Barclay Dec 21 2011)

The answer is in the 'abundant reference' passages that you ‘think’ speak 'only' of ‘temporal’. Death is not temporal for sinners.
"What about after death?" After death you are either 'still' dead, or you have been given life. Life was given to the righteous and faithful, and whomever God chose. In the NT life is only given to those made righteous by faith, just the same as in the OT. The post-mortem Judgment 'might' change your position, but that’s why it’s called Gods Judgment.

All the words in the Old Testament speaking about the destruction, melting, consuming, etc., of sinners, are describing temporal judgments (usually of nations), and do not obviously preclude some divine activity in their lives after death. (Steve, My case for Eternal Torment Apr 28)

You have become accustomed to using the word 'Temporal' in describing all the OT judgments, but all these people are all ‘still’ dead, and they will still be dead at judgment Day. There is nothing to indicate they have ‘life’. This death then is not in ‘any’ sense ‘temporal’ for the wicked or unjust. So all the judgments are not 'temporal' because death results in death, not life (and 'nations' are made up of 'people', God is not pronouncing Judgment on nonbiological identities)

In other words, universal reconciliation can easily accommodate most (perhaps all) the proof texts used by annihilationists, if necessary. Though this does not necessarily prove universalism, it does mean that annihilationists will have to go further than this in shouldering the burden of proof. (Steve, My case for Eternal Torment, Apr 28)

So if they are still dead, and remain so, UR 'cannot' accommodate ‘any’ proof texts used by annihilationists. UR would have to demonstrate that the unjust dead and rebellious are raised to ‘life’.

This has been my contention from the beginning, a fair question, and a fair biblical observation.
'Death' is the irreversible consequence of punishment in the Bible, and God does not equate the death or afterlife of the faithful believer with that of the unbeliever (Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?)
God is the One who raises the warnings of death (not just me and Homer). UR (you contend) would say that most all the OT verses of Judgment are ‘not’ relative to the post-mortem. But if they all teach that ‘death’ is the destiny of sinners, and no one can escape this fact, then you would think God is indeed trying to persuade us to be righteous, with all these warnings of death. After all ‘life’ is what God promises to the righteous, if they so choose (not simply the post effect of death). LIFE is what God holds out to the righteous as the goal of righteousness (God does not seem to have a problem making such a 'self serving' reward the goal). If a person is told they will be raised to ‘life’ after death, without telling them there is a ‘condition’ to receive eternal life, you have left out the truth. The truth is that if you die a sinner, you will remain that way. It is not semantics to think the dead are all raised to ‘life’ at the Judgment. Life and death have polar opposite meanings in scripture.

3. Why do you say UR is dangerous in that it departs from traditional thinking, while annihilationism, which equally departs from traditional thinking, is exempt from such criticism? (Steve, Why is UR Harmful? 12/27/13 11:41 AM)

I have already stated my second biggest concern is that UR takes all relative meaning and impact out of most every Old Testament warning (and therefore all the promises too, by saying they are temporal). In order to accept Conditional immortality, I did not have to change the understanding of ‘any’ long held traditional doctrine or verse at all whatsoever. I realized that the two or three verses with which I always had problems with were explained by the hundreds of others describing ‘death and destruction’ on the sinner. The only place I depart from traditional thinking is over the ‘length’ of the punishment, which I feel is explained by the word death.
Where with UR, I have been absolutely amazed at the massive subversion of multiple doctrines, meaning and verses in order to try and justify UR.

[steve7150]

Where with UR, I have been absolutely amazed at the massive subversion of multiple doctrines, meaning and verses in order to try and justify UR.

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jriccitelli

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Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:14 am
Location: San Jose, CA





It's not a matter of justifying UR. It doesn't need justifying as it is God's stated will and if God purposes to do it nothing can stop it. This belief in mans libertarian freewill is a philosophy that makes it seem like man is a lot more important in God's grand plan then he actually is. IMO God allows a limited kind of "freewill" because it fits his purposes that man should learn and mature.
If you really look at most people objectively do you think they are capable of making decisions for eternity? They can't even make intelligent decisions about the
simplest things in life.

[jriccitelli]

True, why would you think mans thinking gets any better post-mortem?
UR is gravely overestimating mans nature and desire for sin. God is forever loving, but man is not infinite, it is still mans choice.
I noticed Gods desire for their repentance in Ezekiel 33:11 is surrounded completely and entirely with the conditions and warnings of life and death. It says the sinner will surly die, and the righteous will live, reflective of Genesis 3. But I will go into detail below.

It would be fair to point out that you went off my typo (above) error (Just as it seems Candle must have left out the word ‘should’ in his post). The context should reveal I meant to write:
(My response to 7150) True, why would you think mans thinking gets any better post-mortem? UR is gravely overestimating mans nature and desire for sin. God is forever loving, but man is not infinite, it is still mans choice (Jan 04, 2014 9:34)
It should have read underestimating rather than overestimating. This has been my contention all along, so it is nothing new. You have to allow this simple correction, right?
Anyway, I will answer all your specific questions soon since they are easy to answer, but I do work full time (and overtime). I wanted to answer a lot of these questions back then but I did leave town over the weekend in which they were asked, and I have gone back to work since, so just getting 10 minutes at home has been hard.

[jriccitelli]

4. Since you use Ezekiel’s “watchman on the wall” analogy to criticize those who teach a different view of hell from yours, are you saying that God told Ezekiel to preach about hell? (Why is UR Harmful? 12/27/13 11:41 AM)

Again, it is not just ‘Hell’ (or your definition of it); death is what Ezekiel warns of. Sheol is mentioned 5 times from Ezek. 31-32, and the pit, and the grave, and gone down, and sword etc. etc. these are synonymous with death. Death is the threat and consequence of the warnings. Ezekiel goes into great detail in numerous verses in distinguishing the difference between a judgment of death and of life:
"All of them are slain, fallen by the sword, who spread terror in the land of the living. (32:23) They have made a bed for her among the slain with all her hordes. Her graves are around it, they are all uncircumcised, slain by the sword (although their terror was instilled in the land of the living)… (25) though they instilled their terror in the land of the living… (26) who went down to Sheol with their weapons of war and whose swords were laid under their heads; but the punishment for their iniquity rested on their bones, though the terror of these heroes was once in the land of the living (27) … say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus you have spoken, saying, “Surely our transgressions and our sins are upon us, and we are rotting away in them; how then can we survive? … “When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die. 14 “But when I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and he turns from his sin and practices justice and righteousness, 15 if a wicked man restores a pledge, pays back what he has taken by robbery, walks by the statutes which ensure life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 16 “None of his sins that he has committed will be remembered against him. He has practiced justice and righteousness; he shall surely live (33:10-16)
God repeats throughout Ezekiel: ‘You will surely die’.
Ezekiel's audience even 'argue' that God is 'unjust'. Why, is it because ‘everyone’ experiences death? No because of His 'dividing' Judgments which they call unfair (33:17, 20). This sounds exactly like Universalists. In 33:31 they like his pleasant voice and listen to Ezekiel’s words but they “but they do not do them, for they do the lustful desires expressed by their mouth, and their heart goes after their gain” This is just what I am saying.

Ezekiel makes it clear: there are ‘conditions’ for ‘life’. The death ‘that Ezekiel speaks of’ is for the wicked, not the righteous. The righteous he says “shall surely live”.

‘I don't see what this has to do with your thesis. Ezekiel was told to be a watchman and warn the people of impending invasion’ (Steve Dec 27, 2013 1:41 pm)

No one was going to fall into the pit unaware on Ezekiel’s watch.

5. You asked (twice) why Jeremiah was put in the dungeon. I gave my answer both times, and asked for yours answer and what your point might be. You have not replied. Please do. ("Something I Have Noticed" 12/27/13 9:48 AM and Why is UR Harmful? 12/27/13 11:41 AM)

Your first answer had all the depth of: why was Nelson Mandela put in jail? Because ‘jail’ is were they put political prisoners?:

They put him in a well because that was a very common way to incarcerate a person. Joseph's brothers did the same to him. What is your point? (Steve, Dec 27, 2013, Something…)

I guess you realized you couldn’t get away with such a deep analysis and added that he was a 'political prisoner'. They put him in there because he was making a political statement! The 'king' fell for the princes 'lie'. But the princes, nor did anybody, want to hear Jeremiahs prophecies of doom and death and destruction. This is so clear. The princes heard Jeremiahs words from Baruch (36:15) they had the prophecies burned, they continued to hate Jeremiah, and they hated his preaching of destruction. Even Jeremiah asks the king to consider why he (Jeremiah) was being persecuted (37:18), in verse 18:23 it seems Jeremiah already prophesized of them digging a pit for him. Jeremiahs message was clear; death and destruction: that is what got him thrown in the pit, not because he had a different political viewpoint.

6. I asked, “Which of the blessings of the OT have I or anyone else applied to post-mortem destinies?” This was addressing one of your major points. You have not answered. ("Something I Have Noticed" 12/27/13 12:59 PM)

Is UR saying then, they do not apply any blessings to the post-mortem? Well it would be interesting if 'you' apply ‘any’ OT promises to anything other than what you call 'temporal', but Jesus and all the NT writers refer to OT promises extensively. I think that proves the OT promises apply to the hereafter and post-mortem. Life itself is the most important and central promise of OT blessings. Life or death, that was the choice they were given.
So does the OT promise life to everyone, or is it conditional?

[Paidion]

Hi 7150, I can't imagine anyone ever preaching UR in a gospel message to unbelievers either.

I can not only imagine it; I have done it.

Their response? I quote one of those responses below:

Oh, if only that were true! I could serve a God like that. But according to the Christians I've met, it's not true, but rather their God will torture most people forever in hell. I want nothing to do with such a cosmic Monster!

[steve7150]

True, why would you think mans thinking gets any better post-mortem?












The devil is destroyed and not around to blind the minds of unbelievers. Also being face to face with Christ may change people. Do you think it affected Paul?