Confessions of a Quasi-Partial-Preterist

End Times
Singalphile
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Re: Confessions of a Quasi-Partial-Preterist

Post by Singalphile » Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:02 pm

Is that your impression of The Message? ;)

"Now, friends, read these next words carefully. Slow down and don’t go jumping to conclusions regarding the day when our Master, Jesus Christ, will come back and we assemble to welcome him. Don’t let anyone shake you up or get you excited over some breathless report or rumored letter from me that the day of the Master’s arrival has come and gone. Don’t fall for any line like that.

3-5 Before that day comes, a couple of things have to happen. First, the Apostasy. Second, the debut of the Anarchist, a real dog of Satan. He’ll defy and then take over every so-called god or altar. Having cleared away the opposition, he’ll then set himself up in God’s Temple as “God Almighty.” Don’t you remember me going over all this in detail when I was with you? Are your memories that short?".

I prefer yours.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

dwilkins
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Re: Confessions of a Quasi-Partial-Preterist

Post by dwilkins » Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:03 am

2 Thess. 1, The Message

3-4 You need to know, friends, that thanking God over and over for you is not only a pleasure; it’s a must. We have to do it. Your faith is growing phenomenally; your love for each other is developing wonderfully. Why, it’s only right that we give thanks. We’re so proud of you; you’re so steady and determined in your faith despite all the hard times that have come down on you. We tell everyone we meet in the churches all about you.

5-10 All this trouble is a clear sign that God has decided to make you fit for the kingdom. You’re suffering now, but justice is on the way. When the Master Jesus appears out of heaven in a blaze of fire with his strong angels, he’ll even up the score by settling accounts with those who gave you such a bad time. His coming will be the break we’ve been waiting for. Those who refuse to know God and refuse to obey the Message will pay for what they’ve done. Eternal exile from the presence of the Master and his splendid power is their sentence. But on that very same day when he comes, he will be exalted by his followers and celebrated by all who believe—and all because you believed what we told you.

11-12 Because we know that this extraordinary day is just ahead, we pray for you all the time—pray that our God will make you fit for what he’s called you to be, pray that he’ll fill your good ideas and acts of faith with his own energy so that it all amounts to something. If your life honors the name of Jesus, he will honor you. Grace is behind and through all of this, our God giving himself freely, the Master, Jesus Christ, giving himself freely.

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RICHinCHRIST
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Re: Confessions of a Quasi-Partial-Preterist

Post by RICHinCHRIST » Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:50 pm

paidion,



This is why the parousia (at least in this passage) cannot be referring to a futurist view of the physical return of Christ. Paul explained the second coming to the Thessalonians previously. If he explained the parousia to them, and it was the parousia of the futurist, then there is no way they could have been deceived that the day of The Lord had already come (unless they were very stupid, or just forgot entirely what Paul said). Therefore, the parousia must have been an entirely different type of event, one in which they might be deceived by a letter or by a prophet coming and telling them so. If they received a letter about the destruction of the temple, then they very well might have been deceived by that (since news traveled at a much slower rate back then).
Jeremiah wrote:hello rich,

since you've been considering hyper preterism, what is your thinking now on the resurrection of the dead?

edit: p.s. I don't mean to divert the conversation at all, I was just curious of your thinking on this aspect of "full" preterism. I think they effectively deny the resurrection, which I believe is a dangerous mistake.

grace and peace to you.
Im still a partial preterist. However, some of the passages I used to think referred to the physical second coming Im now very open to referring to AD 70 (Such as 2 Thess 1-2 and Matthew 24:35-Matthew 25 to name a few). I'm still agnostic about Revelation, although I lean toward the preterist interpretation. I don't think one could decipher whether full preterism is true or false from Revelation alone, so Im not too worried about that.

The only verse I can think of that is keeping me a partial preterist (in regards to Christ's physical return) is Acts 1:11. EDIT:And 1 thess 4:16-17

Regarding the resurrection, I'm aware of the full preterist's position, and I disagree with it mostly due to 1 Corinthians 15 and 2 Timothy 2:17-18. However, I'm agnostic as to whether the resurrection should be taken symbolically in the writings of The apostle John as well as Daniel chapter 12. Perhaps it's a both/and and not an either/or. But yes, I still believe in a literal resurrection from the dead (mostly due to 1 Corinthians 15 not being symbolic language). But to be honest, I haven't really searched out the arguments on the full preterist side of this issue, since Im not in too much of a hurry to change my mind :) . My conclusions have come from my own studies and not by hearing full preterist propaganda.

Duncan
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Re: Confessions of a Quasi-Partial-Preterist

Post by Duncan » Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:14 pm

Here is something from volume I of my book (The Antichrist and the Second Coming) on the Man of Lawlessness. Paul is elaborating on Daniel 11:36-12:13.

THE CONNECTIONS BETWEEN THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS
AND THE KING OF THE NORTH

In his discussion of the man of lawlessness, the one “who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God” (2 Thess. 2:4), Paul expounds on the king of the North of Daniel 11:36-45, the one who would “exalt and magnify himself above every god [and] speak blasphemies against the God of gods” (Dan. 11:36). Thus, both the king of the North and the man of lawlessness oppose God and try to exalt themselves above God. Both are vanquished at the time of the Second Advent (2 Thess. 2:8; Dan. 11:45). Although Daniel 11:36-12:13 does not actually depict the parousia, it shows the events that the NT associates with it, that is, the great tribulation (Dan. 12:1; cf. Matt. 24:21), the abomination of desolation (Dan. 12:11; cf. Matt. 24:15), and the resurrection and judgment (Dan. 12:2-3; cf. Matt. 25:31-32). All of these events are shown as happening at this time, at the end of the age attack by the king of the North on Jerusalem.

Both the man of lawlessness and the king of the North are defeated after laying siege to the Temple in Jerusalem (2 Thess. 2:4; Dan. 11:45). As I mentioned previously, the Antichrist’s defeat at this time is not talking about the death of a man but the destruction of a demonic ruler that worked through a man (cf. Rev. 11:7; 17:8). This was the end of the spiritual ruler that worked through Titus in his destruction of the Jewish nation. This resulted in the casting of this demonic ruler of the Roman people (Dan. 9:26; cf. Dan. 10:13) into the lake of fire (cf. Dan. 7:11; Rev. 19:20).

The king of the North/man of lawlessness would be a man who would do as he pleased; he would “do according to his own will” (Dan. 11:36). In the words of Paul, he would be a “man of lawlessness” (2 Thess. 2:3 NASB). The king of the North/man of lawlessness would “destroy and annihilate many” (Dan. 11:44); in Paul’s words, he would be “the son of destruction” (2 Thess. 2:3 NASB).12 Both Daniel and Paul are talking about the ultimate day of the Lord in their discussion of the king of the North/man of lawlessness. This is made clear by the fact that the great tribulation and resurrection are shown as occurring at the time of the king of the North’s attack on the Temple (Dan. 11:45-12:2).13 In his discussion of the man of lawlessness, Paul also talks about the time of the resurrection on the day of the Lord. Compare Daniel 12:2 (“And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake”) with 1 Thessalonians 4:14 (“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus”).14 Both contexts are speaking about the resurrection that was to happen at the end of the age.

Added to all this, both Daniel and Paul speak of Michael the archangel (cf. Jude 9) being active at this time (Dan. 12:1; 1 Thess. 4:16), and both writers speak of it as a time of severe tribulation (Dan. 12:1; 1 Thess. 3:3-4). This great tribulation would be completed by the time of the destruction of the Jewish nation in AD 70 (Dan. 12:7; cf. 1 Thess. 5:3). According to Daniel (12:10-11 LXX) this would be a time when lawless ones would commit lawlessness (cf. Matt. 24:11-12). Drawing from this, Paul writes about the ultimate “lawless one” (2 Thess. 2:8). Beale elaborates:
The expression man of lawlessness (anthrōpos tēs anomies) echoes Daniel 12:10-11 which . . . refers to the end-time trial as a period when “the lawless ones [anomoi] will do lawlessness [anomeō], and the lawless ones [anomoi] will not understand” (i.e., they will mislead, be misled or both).15 (brackets and emphasis in original)
THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS AND THE COMING WRATH ON ISRAEL
Daniel 11:36 talks of the Antichrist bringing God’s wrath on Israel. The king of the North would “prosper till the wrath has been accomplished . . .” (cf. Dan. 9:26-27). Paul, referring to this wrath, tells the Thessalonians that it would be directed at unbelievers (the Jews in particular, cf. Luke 21:20-23) not God’s people: “When they say ‘Peace and safety!’ then sudden destruction comes upon them . . . [but] God did not appoint us to wrath but salvation . . .” (1 Thess. 5:3, 9; cf. Jer. 6:10-30). In 1 Thessalonians 1:10 Paul tells his first-century audience “to wait for His [God’s] Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.” Approximately two decades earlier, John the Baptist warned the Jewish leaders of this coming wrath:
But when he [John the Baptist] saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly cleanout His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
Matthew 3:5-10; cf. 22:1-14; 2 Thessalonians 2:1
(underlined emphasis mine)
Indeed, the Jews who were troubling the Thessalonian believers (either directly or by proxy; cf. 1 Thess. 2:14-16; Acts 17:1-15) would be repaid “with tribulation” on the day of the Lord (2 Thess. 1:6). This tribulation—the great tribulation mentioned in Daniel 12:1—was the coming judgment of God on the Jews (cf. Matt. 21:33-45; Rev. 15:1; 16:19):
Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say “If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.” Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your father’s guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Matthew 23:29-36 (underlined emphasis mine)
This coming wrath is clearly described by Luke in the context of the AD 70 judgment and dispersal of the Jewish nation.
But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. For these are the days of vengeance that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Luke 21:20-24 (underlined emphasis mine)
When Saul was persecuting believers he did so under the authority of the high priest (Acts 9:1-2, cf. 22:4-5). With the fall of Jerusalem, the institutions of the priesthood and the Temple were destroyed. In fact, when Titus captured the Temple he had all the surviving priests put to death. After AD 70, the Jews throughout the empire would not trouble believers as they had before; they (the Jews) would have to worry about their own safety. The end result was that Jesus’ parousia gave his followers rest from Jewish persecution: “it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels” (2 Thess. 1:6-7). It may be hard to fathom that this coming of Jesus with his angels happened at AD 70, but it is what Jesus taught:
For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. 16
Matthew 16:27-28
If, as futurists claim, the Second Advent is still future, then Paul’s first-century audience at Thessalonica never lived to see the rest that Paul had promised them at the soon-coming parousia.

THE TWO INDICATORS GIVEN FOR THE DAY OF THE LORD
IN DANIEL 12 AND 2 THESSALONIANS 2

Finally, seeing as how Paul is elaborating on the end of the age spoken of in Daniel 11:36-12:13, it seems quite likely that the two indicators he gives to identify the timing of the day of the Lord are related to the two indicators given in Daniel 12 for the countdown to the end of the age. The two markers given in Daniel 12:11 are (1) the taking away of the daily sacrifice and (2) the abomination of desolation (i.e., the coming of the one who would make Israel desolate, cf. Dan. 9:27). The two markers that Paul gives in 2 Thessalonians are (1) “the rebellion” (Gr. apostasia) and (2) the revelation of “the lawless one” (2 Thess. 2:3 NRSV).

The Jewish rebellion (which was referred to as an apostasia)17 began in AD 66 with the taking away of the daily sacrifice for the emperor (or any foreigner). The Roman response to this resulted in the coming of the one who would make the Jewish nation desolate. This was the abomination of desolation, the coming of the Antichrist (Dan. 9:27, 12:11); it equates with the second of Paul’s markers, the revelation of the man of lawlessness.
Notice that Paul, in his teachings in 1-2 Thessalonians, is not only drawing from Daniel 11:36-37 in his discussion of the man of lawlessness and the day of the Lord, he is drawing from the whole final section of Daniel (Dan. 11:36-12:13). This should not be a surprise, as both Daniel and Paul are speaking of the same subject, the attack of the king of the North/man of lawlessness against God’s holy mountain and his capture of the Temple (Dan. 11:36-37, 45; 2 Thess. 2:4). This would happen on the ultimate day of the Lord; it would be the time of the great tribulation and the beginning of the resurrection (Dan. 12:1-3; 1 Thess. 4:16; 2 Thess. 1:6-7).

dwilkins
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Re: Confessions of a Quasi-Partial-Preterist

Post by dwilkins » Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:40 pm

RICHinCHRIST wrote: Regarding the resurrection, I'm aware of the full preterist's position, and I disagree with it mostly due to 1 Corinthians 15 and 2 Timothy 2:17-18. However, I'm agnostic as to whether the resurrection should be taken symbolically in the writings of The apostle John as well as Daniel chapter 12. Perhaps it's a both/and and not an either/or. But yes, I still believe in a literal resurrection from the dead (mostly due to 1 Corinthians 15 not being symbolic language). But to be honest, I haven't really searched out the arguments on the full preterist side of this issue, since Im not in too much of a hurry to change my mind :) . My conclusions have come from my own studies and not by hearing full preterist propaganda.
Regarding the Hymaneaus issue, I would highly recommend listening to Preston's series on this. I'm on Duncan's side as far as the timing of the Millennium goes, so I'm not a full preterist. But, I am in agreement with Preston about the timing of the initiation of the parousia and resurrection in 70AD. For Steve, if you haven't done so you need to be familiar with Preston's Hymenaeus material before the debate.

http://www.store.bibleprophecy.com/the-hymenaen-heresy/

Doug

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