Purgatory

End Times
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mattrose
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Purgatory

Post by mattrose » Tue May 15, 2012 2:58 pm

I just started reading a book by Jerry Walls about the logic of Purgatory

He argues that the following 2 truths...
A) Most people die without moral perfection
B) Heaven is morally perfect

Lead to the following 4 possibilities...
1) B is false. Heaven contains people with moral imperfections
2) A&B are true. Only those who obtain perfection in this life will ever make heaven
3) A&B are true. But God zaps us with moral perfection just before we enter heaven
4) A&B are true. The sanctification process continues in Purgatory before heaven

He says that 1 & 2 can be quickly dismissed. 3 is the protestant position. 4 is the roman catholic position. His book is an evangelical protestant attempt to defend purgatory.

Thoughts?

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Perry
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Re: Purgatory

Post by Perry » Tue May 15, 2012 3:51 pm

Hi Matt,

This is not dissimilar to some of the discussions that Paidion and I were having not too long ago. Paidion basically argued in favor of 4, and I in favor of 3. (I'm not sure he'd called it purgatory, and I don't think he's Catholic. Paidion?) Option 1 is indeed very quickly dismissed. Option 2 is a spooky proposition. If that's the case then indeed, though many are called, few will be chosen.

The question I have is whether purgatory, if such a place does/will exist, differs from hell. Is there a logical dividing line between those worthy of hell, and those worthy of purgatory? How is that determination made? (I believe Paidion would say everyone who doesn't immediately go to heaven, will go to purgatory instead. Is that right Paidion? Again, the word "purgatory" may be loaded with connotations that some find distasteful, but it seems like a workable enough nomenclature to me.)

I will also comment that, even though I favor option 3, that doesn't mean that my view of the hereafter is one in which we cease to grow and learn and develop. God will always be able to show us new, exciting, wonderful things.

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Suzana
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Re: Purgatory

Post by Suzana » Tue May 15, 2012 4:45 pm

In favour or 3), this scripture came to mind:

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

(I haven't time now to give it much thought as need to leave for work) but I think 'be like Him' refers to more than just imperishable/immortal qualities. I still haven't quite got my head around in what way it follows that we will be like Him BECAUSE we shall see Him as He is, but that's what it says.
Suzana
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Duncan
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Re: Purgatory

Post by Duncan » Wed May 16, 2012 1:13 am

A. Most people die without moral perfection.

To be blunt, that is a really stupid statement by him. All people die without moral perfection. All have fallen short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23). All have fallen short of God's perfection (we don't do anything perfectly!) A million years in a reformitory (i.e., purgatory) will not change that. You want your moral imperfections gone? Wash them in the blood of the Lamb (Rev. 7:14). That, and a resurrected body, free of the frailities (moral and physical) of our current body will get one the perfection we will have in heaven.

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mattrose
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Re: Purgatory

Post by mattrose » Wed May 16, 2012 11:21 am

I think you are misunderstanding his point. He's not denying justification through Jesus' blood. He saying that practically, after justification, we are still morally imperfect. You seem to be suggesting that the resurrection body will zap us with practical perfection (option 3). That's possible. But his statement isn't stupid, as you say. I think you are confusing justification and sanctification. I doubt Walls takes any issue with the doctrine of justification (that God sees us as righteous through the blood of Jesus). But God is interested in more than legal labels... and powerful enough to change us practically. When we confess our sins, He is not only faithful to forgive us our sins, but goes on to also cleanse us of all unrighteousness. He wants us to be perfect as He is perfect... and He's more powerful than sin, so if we submit to His work in us, sanctification works.

Duncan
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Re: Purgatory

Post by Duncan » Wed May 16, 2012 2:58 pm

So how does this post death sanctification work? Because all people die without reaching God's moral perfection, so we would all need it. And yes, I can not believe he said that only some people die without reaching perfection. Anybody you would like to point out who died being perfect? Even if we looked at a mother Theresa we would still find mixed motives in the good deeds she did. Billy Graham is getting on in years. I would bet money if we were to ask him how close to God's perfection he has come, he would laugh out loud. It reminds me of the saying, "don't ever meet your heroes" (if you do you may well find out they are not quite as great as you thought they were).
And of course there is the little matter about finding this post death reformitory (i.e., purgatory) in Scripture.

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mattrose
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Re: Purgatory

Post by mattrose » Wed May 16, 2012 3:14 pm

Walls writes from a Wesleyan background. Wesleyans, moreso than any other branch of Christianity, have navigated the terrain of 'Christian perfection.' If I had to guess, I would say that his use of the word 'most' was either tongue-n-cheek (to honor his theological heritage) or that by 'perfect' he simply means perfect in intentions. In any case, it is certainly not the point he wishes to argue.

I would agree with you that the Scriptural case for purgatory is weak.

But I also don't think the case for God zapping us with moral perfection upon death or resurrection is very strong either... and THAT is why I thought this was an interesting subject to discuss. As I get to know God better through the years, I find Him less and less to be the kind of God who just forces something upon us that isn't genuine. I don't think He will zap us with some finished form of sanctification. But I also don't believe in the doctrine of purgatory. So I am left to come up with some other critique of Walls.

I have always believed that I will continue to grow in heaven/eternity. I think their will be much to learn. I have never really considered whether this applies to my own morality. So I'm wondering if I'm prepared to question if everyone in heaven is in a morally perfect place. Maybe it's not that everyone is morally perfect (practically speaking), but that they are honest about their flaws and instantly go to Christ to continue His sanctifying work. Maybe there is no shame in heaven about our shortcomings, but simply joy that we are overcoming them.

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steve
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Re: Purgatory

Post by steve » Wed May 16, 2012 6:55 pm

I wonder what Paul means when he says, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad" (2 Cor.5:10).

He seems to be talking about post-judgment circumstances of Christians (as well, possibly, as of non Christians, but that is not in view in his context). Clearly, not every Christian, when life is over, will have done the same things or the same number of things in the body for which to be rewarded. It seems that we have this life in which to do things, i.e., to pursue spiritual maturity, to benefit others, to glorify God, etc. Is Paul, possibly, saying that the reward we will receive will be permanently set at death, and will be commensurate with how much we have exploited our earthly opportunities to "lay up treasure in heaven"?

I believe that we will all be sinless in heaven, but perhaps not equally perfect, or mature. If we assume perfection is measured only on the scale of how much we have conquered the sins with which we struggle, we may be seeing things differently from God's way of assessing. He may judge perfection on the scale of humility, love, faith, surrender, godly intention, etc. Some who are doing well in those areas may still be bedeviled with frustrating weaknesses toward certain other sins, and yet be very near the perfection that God is seeking.

I think that even those who die without having reached a stage of great maturity in Christ will be sinless in heaven (though perhaps not very mature) simply because the things that currently cause us to sin—the devil's deception, the corruption of our flesh, blindness to true spiritual realities—will be absent there. All true Christians (even the youngest) desire to live a life pleasing to God. Why do we not consistently do so? It is not because we lack intention, but we succumb to the the craft and allurements of Satan to our flesh. Only those who desire to be holy will even be in heaven, and there, all the things that are obstacles to that intention will be removed.

Thus, I think, after death, sinlessness will be the one common denominator of all who are saved. However, various degrees of perfection in other respects may be unequal, depending on the quality and quantity of "the things done in the body," and the benefit to which our opportunities have been turned.

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john6809
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Re: Purgatory

Post by john6809 » Wed May 16, 2012 7:02 pm

Matt Rose wrote, As I get to know God better through the years, I find Him less and less to be the kind of God who just forces something upon us that isn't genuine. I don't think He will zap us with some finished form of sanctification.
I haven't really studied this topic much and so, I don't consider myself an expert by any stretch. But I am always curious as to why anybody thinks that we could have a face to face meeting with Jesus and still have a rebellious bone in our body. I would think that we, as believers, would welcome that zap of instant snctification with open arms. I certainly wouldn't feel He forced it on me since I would much prefer to have this zap even now. Instant sanctification is not something that He would have to force on me.
"My memory is nearly gone; but I remember two things: That I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Savior." - John Newton

steve7150
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Re: Purgatory

Post by steve7150 » Wed May 16, 2012 8:01 pm

I believe Paidion would say everyone who doesn't immediately go to heaven, will go to purgatory instead. Is that right Paidion?











Actually the lake of fire where you can be purged of your sins.

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