The resurrection

[Guest]

I am a believer in a future resurrection of the dead as described in John 5:28-29 in which all who in the graves will be raised. The question I am posing with this post is whether the resurrected body will be physical or spiritual. I have heard Hank Hanagraaff say (I think) that he believes in a physical resurrection. I have never believed this way. I have always thought that our resurrected bodies will be spiritual bodies that will dwell with Jesus in a spiritual new Jerusalem in a spiritual new Heavens and new Earth. Here are some scriptures which I believe support this claim.

I Cor 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

I Cor 15:50a I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God...

2 Cor 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Heb 12:25-29 See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? 26At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.”[e] 27The words “once more” indicate the removing of what can be shaken–that is, created things–so that what cannot be shaken may remain. 28Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29for our “God is a consuming fire.”

Now, having said all that, I also realize that after Jesus resurrection he had a body that could be seen and touched (at least while he was on Earth before his assention). And the scripture says...

Phil 3:12 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

So I am asking the members of this forum to share any insights they may have on this subject. Thank you,

Todd

[Guest]

Hi Todd,
I have always held a view like that of Hank's, which is, I think, a standard view among evangelicals. Of couse, that doesn't mean that it is correct.

In defense of the physicality of the resurrection of believers' bodies, I always used the passage you cited in Philippians 3, as well as the passage in John 5:28-29, but I suppose that these do not speak explicitly of the physicality of the new bodies.

The main thing that causes me to think the bodies will be physical is that I anticipate God's restoring the earth to its original, pre-fallen state. If Adam and Eve had never sinned, they would have lived forever in physical bodies, in a physical world. I have assumed that this is the way God really wished for things to be before sin fouled things up. It was this physical world, and the (potentially) immortal physical bodies of Adam and Eve that God declared to be "very good."

That "it is raised a spiritual body" (1 Cor.15:44) does seem to raise questions about this view, but those who have held it have always pointed out that Paul does not contrast the "spiritual body" with a "physical body" (as if to deny physicality), but he contrasts it with a "natural body"--suggesting that he is using "spiritual" to mean "supernatural."

The statement that "flesh and blood" cannot inherit the kingdom has always challenged my understanding of this matter, and may render it inadequate.

This mortal body will put on immortality (1 Cor.15:53). For the former qualities of weakness, corruption and dishonor, the body will take on power, incorruptibility and glory (1 Cor.15:42-43). But none of these things specify whether the physicality of the body will be abandoned in favor of non-physicality.

There is a mystery in this (1 Cor.15:51), our grasp of which we would probably do well to remain humble about. It is clear that there will be a constitutional change in the nature of our bodies in the resurrection. Whether that change will be so fundamental as to render inapplicable the label "physical," or not, it may be immpossible for us to state with certainty.

In 1 Corinthians 15:35ff, Paul responds to one whom he imagines may ask, "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?" This is the very question we are here discussing. I think Paul, in responding to the questioner, leaves the matter somewhat nebulous. I suppose the line that answers our question most adequately is that found in verse 38: "But God gives it a body as He pleases." I can live with that answer, and wait for God to fill in the details when the time comes.

Blessings!

[Guest]

Steve,

Thanks so much for your post. I admit that I am unsure about my view which is why I asked the question. I also agree with your point that "God gives it a body as He pleases."

I was studying further I Cor 15:44-49 and it seems to me this still supports the spiritual body concept because it says the the last Adam was a lifegiving spirit.

Other thoughts on this subject revolve around the New Jerusalem which I believe is already in existence as described in Hebrews 12.

Heb 12:18-24
18You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; 19to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, 20because they could not bear what was commanded: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned.” 21The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, “I am trembling with fear.”

22But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Here the writer of Hebrews contrasts Mt. Sinai to Mt. Zion and the heavenly Jerusalem. He states that unlike Mt. Sinai this mountain (Mt. Zion) cannot be touched. This is because, I believe, it is spiritual and cannot be seen, touched or shaken (v. 27). Mt. Sinai shook when the Lord spoke and all things which can be shaken (physical things) will be removed when the Lord returns leaving only those things which cannot be shaken (spiritual things).

So, with this in mind, let's marry this with Rev 21.

Rev 21:1-4
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

Here we have the spiritual city coming down from heaven to the new heavens and new earth. It would not seem logical to me that something spiritual (new Jerusalem) would become physical after the resurrection which would be the case if the new heavens and the new earth were physical in nature. This is why I still tend to believe that our eternal state will be spiritual rather than physical. But, I am open and perhaps I am missing some points here or am misapplying something.

Thank you in advance for any additional insight you may have.

Todd

[Guest]

Todd,

I have no additional insights. Perhaps someone else does. You make good points, and you may be correct.

Blessings!

[Guest]

I'm curious how the physical resurrection of Jesus' body fits into this whole discussion. Won't we be like Him in death? It seems His resurrection was both physical (His body was no longer in the tomb) and spiritual (because the disciples didn't recognize Him at first).

Could it be possible to have a new physical body that is able to also function in the spiritual realm in a way that our old (current) bodies are not able to?

[Guest]

I'm curious how the physical resurrection of Jesus' body fits into this whole discussion. Won't we be like Him in death? It seems His resurrection was both physical (His body was no longer in the tomb) and spiritual (because the disciples didn't recognize Him at first).

Rae,

This is a good point. There was and is an empty tomb. Also, in Luke 24

Luke 24:30-31
30And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. 31And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

Here, the resurrected Jesus, shares a meal with them and then vanishes. So, as you say, is both physical and spiritual.

Could it be possible to have a new physical body that is able to also function in the spiritual realm in a way that our old (current) bodies are not able to?

Yes, I think this is quite possible. Thanks for your insights.

Todd

[Guest]

What about this?

Luke 24:36 Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, "Peace to you." 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. 38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."

Jesus confirms it is He by two things:

1. Look at His hands and feet. Now a Spiritual body would not have these marks since they were done to His flesh.

2. It says, they thought is was a spirit, but Jesus said a spirit does not have flesh and bones and you see that I have.

So clearly "flesh" and "bones" can inherit the Kingdom of God. When Paul says flesh and blood cannot enherit the kingdom he means the "old man (Adam)". Paul admonishes us to put on the "new man" (Christ) who was also flesh and blood, who's blood clenses us of our sins.

So I see our old dead bodies raised and changed. This means the same bodies but changed:

So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

The contrast is made between the "first Adam and the last Adam".
We also see our old bodies being raised. Just as Jesus physical body was gone, and His new, glorified body contained the marks of the spikes to show He had been raised and was "flesh and bone unlike a spirit".

So I see the new heavens and earth as physical, just as the "old" heavens and earth really fled away at judgement, there will be a new physical creation without a curse.

But I have always wondered about Adam and Eve, when they were given "coverings" if this didn't mean they were given "skin" as in the dead flesh we live in today. Maybe they were from the dust of the earth but were given coverings that are a type of our "outer man that is wasting away".

[Guest]

Sean, Rae, and Steve,

Thanks for your contributions to this thread. All are very good points that have helped. I must concede that, as Steve pointed out, there is a Mystery in this, and perhaps we will not be able to figure it all out until it happens. Praise God for His love toward us!

Todd

[Guest]

There are a ton of good points that have been made in this thread. I'd like to add a few of my own.

When we read in Luke 24:36-37 that the disciples thought Jesus was "a spirit," what they were talking about was the traditional Jewish understanding that the spirit of a person often remains with their body for a short period of time - often cited as "three days" - before departing. That's why Jesus claimed that He would be in the tomb for three days and three nights, by the way. He was in effect saying that He would be well and truly dead, not just a spirit deciding to "come back" as the Jews thought might have been possible.

Anyway, the disciples thought they were seeing the "ghost" of Jesus! But Jesus showed that He was no ghost. His body was solid and had substance. They could touch and handle Him. Even though His resurrected body was made of spirit, it wasn't the same as the "spirit in man" which apparently has no physical substance.

Does that make sense?

Moreover, there is also a Jewish tradition that Adam was created with a spirit body, like an angel, but that when he sinned his body became mortal. In the resurrection, Adam's body would once again be spirit. Hence, we have 'the end from the beginning' as it were.

Is this traditional Jewish belief correct? There's no explicit biblical support for it, but it does make sense - at least to me.

If we really wanted to know, I suppose we could ask Adam ourselves, when we see him in the Kingdom.

Damon
PS. Sean, I just noticed your comment about Adam and Eve being given "coverings" perhaps meaning that they were given "skin" as in mortal flesh. Let me elaborate on this Jewish tradition that I mentioned above.

First of all, as I've mentioned in other posts, Genesis 1-3 is structured as an inverted chiasmus with the Sabbath day as the central point of emphasis. For brevity's sake, I'll point you to my post on "The Regathering of Israel in the Light of Isaiah 11" in the Eschatology section for more on chiasm. The section in Genesis 3 describing Adam and Eve receiving "coats of skins" - Hebrew kot'not 'or - is paralleled with God's declaration in Genesis 1:3 of "let there be light." By the structure of the text, we are to understand that the coverings that Adam and Eve received have something to do with the "light" mentioned in Genesis 1:3.

According to the Jewish tradition I've been talking about, God used a play on words when He mentioned these "coats of skins." Instead of "coats of skins" - kot'not 'or, one could change the aleph to an ayin and have "coats of light" - kot'not or - instead. This Jewish tradition says that when Adam and Eve were created, their bodies glowed with an inner light. (In other words, they were made of spirit.) But when they sinned, this light went out. So God covered Adam and Eve in coats of skins that symbolized the light of Genesis 1:3. (And that's where the concept of a "coat of many colors" comes from, too! See Gen. 37:3.)

And what is this light? As I've said in other posts, it's the Spirit of love. When Adam and Eve were being held accountable for their sin by God, they chose to point the finger of blame instead of repent. That ain't acting in love! The symbolism is meant to explain that they were supposed to "fake it 'til they make it" as it were. In other words, have the discipline to act as if they were coming from love until that love grew in their hearts. After all, the whole point of having eternal life as a spirit being is that one's love (and also trust) will never grow cold because of difficulties in this life (cf. Mat. 24:12-13).

The point of the Mosaic Law was to keep the Israelites under a strict discipline until they were able and willing to live according to love and trust. To have "Christ formed in us" in other words. That's what Galatians is essentially saying. The symbolism of the "coats of skins" is simply the ancient precursor of that understanding.

Damon

[Guest]

The statement that "flesh and blood" cannot inherit the kingdom has always challenged my understanding of this matter, and may render it inadequate.




My understanding of this is that when Jesus ascended, He had glorified flesh after the resurrection ,which could be touched yet walk through doors, like when He appeared to the disciples and He had no blood since He shed it all on the cross..Im sure youve heard this beofre though...Steve