The Woman and the Dragon in revelation 12

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SamMcNear
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The Woman and the Dragon in revelation 12

Post by SamMcNear » Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:36 pm

OK has anyone heard the view that the The Woman and the Dragon in revelation 12 is referring to the constellation Virgo and other constellations?

Some say it represents the time Jesus was born others say it represents the time Jesus will return.

here is one view:
Revelation 12:1-5 "A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman (constellation Virgo) clothed with the sun (just below the horizon), with the moon (male-child) under her feet and a crown of twelve stars (constellation Bernice) on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon (constellation Draco) with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child (moon), who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne."


Anyone have any info on these views and are they right or wrong?

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Paidion
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Re: The Woman and the Dragon in revelation 12

Post by Paidion » Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:30 am

Sounds like an astrological view to me.

I take the woman as representing the Assembly (or "Church") and her offspring as the manifest sons of God.
Paidion

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SamMcNear
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Re: The Woman and the Dragon in revelation 12

Post by SamMcNear » Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:54 am

I always saw this passage in revelations 12 as the birth of Christ. But what fascinates me is the references to signs that appeared in heaven. I never thought to associate the constellations with these signs but God did create the stars and planets for signs and navigation.

Another thing that fascinates me, I heard that at the time of Jesus' birth the constellations were as this verse says. I have to verify this but if it does that would be very interesting indeed.I believe the film "the Star of Bethlehem" with Actors: Frederick A. Larson and Directors: Stephen Vidano I heard the film talks of the constellations at the time of Jesus' birth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nB70vxO ... ture=share

Duncan
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Re: The Woman and the Dragon in revelation 12

Post by Duncan » Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:56 am

Sam,

Look to Scripture not the stars! Here is something I have written on Rev. 12. It is from volume II of my book (The Antichrist and the Second Coming). This is an excerpt from a section where I go through and look at how Jesus is portrayed in Revelation. Never once is he portrayed in a literal physical manner. I argue that that is evidence for the fact that the book of Revlation is communicated by way of symbols (i.e., is it not literal depictions).

A FIRSTBORN MALE CHILD
The next place we see Jesus is in Revelation 12. In verse 5 he is shown as a firstborn child “who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron.” This is a Messianic reference from Psalm 2:9 (LXX). Again, knowledge of the rest of Scripture is essential for the correct interpretation of the symbols we are presented with. In this chapter we are shown a woman in labor (v. 2) who gives birth to a firstborn male Child (v. 5) and then other children (v. 17). This woman is the New Jerusalem mother. In Isaiah 66 the renewed Jerusalem (Zion) of the new heaven and new earth (Is. 65:17-19) is likened to a mother giving birth.
Before she was in labor, she gave birth; before her pain came, she delivered a male child. Who has seen such things? Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day? Or shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion was in labor, she gave birth to her children. “Shall I bring to the time of birth and not cause delivery?” say the Lord. “Shall I who cause delivery shut up the womb?” Says your God. “Rejoice with Jerusalem, and be glad with her all you who love her; rejoice for joy with her, all you who mourn for her; that you may feed and be satisfied with the consolation of her bosom, that you may drink deeply and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.” For thus says the Lord: “Behold I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream. Then you shall feed; on her sides shall you be carried, and be dandled on her knees. As one whom his mother comforts, so I will comfort you: and you shall be comforted in Jerusalem.”
Isaiah 66:7-13 (underlined emphasis mine)
The New Jerusalem mother in Isaiah 66 is said to give birth to a whole nation at once (v. 8). This is a reference to new covenant believers (cf. 1 Peter 2:9-10). Paul in Galatians says that the Jerusalem from above is symbolic of the new covenant (Gal 4:21-31; cf. Rev. 21:1-2) and that she is the “mother” of all believers: “. . . Which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage . . . but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all” (Gal. 4:24, 26). Thus, we are shown a great sign “in heaven” (Rev. 12:1)—the new covenant mother giving birth to her children. Jesus is the firstborn of this covenant (“the firstborn among many brethren” Rom. 8:29); the rest of the children are those born of the new covenant (cf. Eph. 2:5-6).

The “birth” of Jesus in Revelation 12 has nothing to do with his physical birth; rather, it is a picture of his spiritual birth—as the firstborn from the dead—at his resurrection. In Psalm 2:7 when God (the Father) says, “Thou art my Son, today I have begotten Thee,” he is talking about when he raised Jesus from the dead, the resurrection. We are told this in Acts 13:
God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: “You are My Son, today I have begotten You.” And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: “I will give you the sure mercies of David.” Therefore He also says in another Psalm: “You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.”
Acts 13:33-35
Revelation 12 is thus showing the AD 30 resurrection “birthing” of the Messiah. This explains why right after the male Child is born, he is caught up to God’s throne (v. 5); it is not Jesus’ physical birth being depicted; it is his ascension.

Revelation 12 is introduced with the statement “Now a great sign appeared in heaven . . . .” (Rev. 12:1). David Chilton writes the following on this statement:
St. John alerts us from the outset that we must give careful attention to the subject of this vision, for the symbol of the Woman here is a great sign. “Literalists” would have it that the use of this term implies that most of Revelation is to be taken literally. But this is to miss the point. St. John is not saying that this passage, in contrast to the rest of the book, is a “sign”, for he has already told us that the entire book is composed of “signs” (1:1). The point here is that this is a great sign, an important symbol, central to the interpretation of the prophecy as a whole. St. John is telling his reader to think carefully about the Biblical meaning of the sign.26
The mention of a great sign in Revelation 12 speaks of the importance of the sign not that Revelation 12 is symbolic as opposed to the rest of the book which is literal. So far in my examination of how Jesus is portrayed in Revelation I have not come across a single literal depiction of him. Instead, very powerful symbols have been found that unveil some of the depths of whom and what he is.

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SamMcNear
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Re: The Woman and the Dragon in revelation 12

Post by SamMcNear » Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:00 am

OK
1st of all thank you for the reply.

2nd I'm not looking to the stars as they are my God or my Bible.

3rd I agree we should interpet all scriptures with other scriptures 1st but history and creation can help us see the truth also.
And this is where you may disagree with me the stars could also be a way to help get correct interpetation of scriptures. I feel before the Bible was written God had the Stars tell the gospel story.

Here are the scriptures of why I say that.
Gen 1:14
Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;
and
Psalm 19:1-14
1 The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. 2 Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. 3 There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. 4 Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world. In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun...
there are a few more but I don't have time to write a book just now :)
Steve Gregg talks of all this here http://www.digitalministries.us/steve_g ... rology.mp3

I know to be careful and to not fall into the false belief of astrology. False astrology is the “interpretation” of an assumed influence of the stars (and planets) exert on human destiny. This is a false belief. But a true study of the stars to see the gospel and what God wrote in them is not wrong. The magi and Harods priests did it with the Star of Bethlehem :)

Duncan
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Re: The Woman and the Dragon in revelation 12

Post by Duncan » Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:08 am

I agree Sam. Astrology may very well be a perversion of a true gospel story that is written in the stars.

TruthInLove
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Re: The Woman and the Dragon in revelation 12

Post by TruthInLove » Mon Dec 29, 2014 2:18 am

I know this was posted a while ago. However, I've run into some research regarding this over the past couple of years and I've been bouncing it off of my friends and family recently to get their input. I thought those on this forum might be able to offer some helpful opinions and insights as well. Since it's the Christmas season, I know there may be more interest in this at this time of year.

Dr. Ernest L. Martin wrote a book quite some time ago called "The Star that Astonished The World" that presented a theory about this topic that was slightly different yet related to the subject of this thread. I learned about this book from a citation I found while reading Dr. David Chilton's partial-preterist commentary on the book of Revelation - "The Days of Vengeance".

While I disagree with Dr. Martin on many points in other doctrinal and eschatological areas, I do at least find his discoveries, interpretations and justifying arguments regarding the Star of Bethlehem and the date of Christ's birth quite scholarly and compelling.

I'm not sure if he's uncovered exactly what the Magi saw or not (I certainly don't want to defacto exclude a supernatural explanation), but even if he hasn't, it seems very likely to me, that the astronomical events he discovered has some significance to Christianity, whatever that may be.

I was curious if anyone was familiar with this work and what their thoughts may be on it?

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Re: The Woman and the Dragon in revelation 12

Post by TruthInLove » Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:18 am

I'm guessing that either most people haven't heard of the work of Dr. Martin or they have but it's been so thoroughly discredited/debunked that it needs no further comment. In the event that the former statement represents reality, let me just give a quick run-down of the general gist of what I'm talking about in case anyone wants to do more investigation.

Of direct relevance to this thread, Dr. Martin claims that astronomical events that accurately fit the description of the Woman at the beginning of Revelation 12 existed in the sky for a period of only about 2 hours in 3 B.C. on the morning of a very significant Jewish holiday know as the Day of Trumpets aka New Year's Day of the Jewish Civil calendar aka Rosh ha-Shanah. He argues that this may well indicate the actual date of Christ's birth and evokes some powerful scriptural imagery.

The evidence he presents seems scholarly and dovetails remarkably well with other independent evidence, however, admittedly, it does sound like something straight out of a tabloid magazine. As compelling as it is, I can't help but be somewhat skeptical. In its favor though, the information has been referenced by several sources I'd consider reputable, (e.g. Dr. David Chilton's commentary on the book on Revelation, the "Days of Vengeance")

If someone out there has any opinions on this topic, positive or negative, I'd greatly appreciate hearing them.

The research I'm citing can be found in the following locations:

http://www.askelm.com/star/star006.htm (starting under the section of the page titled "Astronomy and the Birth of Jesus")
http://versebyverse.org/doctrine/birthofchrist.html (section VII of the outline)

Thank you in advance.

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robbyyoung
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Re: The Woman and the Dragon in revelation 12

Post by robbyyoung » Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:43 pm

TruthInLove wrote:I'm guessing that either most people haven't heard of the work of Dr. Martin or they have but it's been so thoroughly discredited/debunked that it needs no further comment. In the event that the former statement represents reality, let me just give a quick run-down of the general gist of what I'm talking about in case anyone wants to do more investigation.

Of direct relevance to this thread, Dr. Martin claims that astronomical events that accurately fit the description of the Woman at the beginning of Revelation 12 existed in the sky for a period of only about 2 hours in 3 B.C. on the morning of a very significant Jewish holiday know as the Day of Trumpets aka New Year's Day of the Jewish Civil calendar aka Rosh ha-Shanah. He argues that this may well indicate the actual date of Christ's birth and evokes some powerful scriptural imagery.

The evidence he presents seems scholarly and dovetails remarkably well with other independent evidence, however, admittedly, it does sound like something straight out of a tabloid magazine. As compelling as it is, I can't help but be somewhat skeptical. In its favor though, the information has been referenced by several sources I'd consider reputable, (e.g. Dr. David Chilton's commentary on the book on Revelation, the "Days of Vengeance")

If someone out there has any opinions on this topic, positive or negative, I'd greatly appreciate hearing them.

The research I'm citing can be found in the following locations:

http://www.askelm.com/star/star006.htm (starting under the section of the page titled "Astronomy and the Birth of Jesus")
http://versebyverse.org/doctrine/birthofchrist.html (section VII of the outline)

Thank you in advance.
Hi TruthInLove,

This story starts with Daniel and The Chaldeans, who were an influential and highly educated group of people. They were well known as wise men and astrologers during the time of Jewish captivity in Babylon, please reference:

Daniel 1:4
Daniel 2:10
Daniel 4:7
Daniel 5:7, & 11

At the time of Daniel, Babylon was the intellectual center of western Asia, and the Chaldeans were renowned for their study and knowledge of astrology and astronomy. They kept detailed astronomical records for over 360 years, which can help us understand how the “wise men from the East” would have been able to recognize and follow the “star that would lead them to the King of Jews”.

Daniel 9:25 gives precise instructions concerning the coming Messiah of Israel. Daniel died in Babylon and many Jews elected to stay, most notable are Mordecai and Esther. I will let Michael Rood tell the story from here, and maybe this will help you ascertain the truth in your own studies.

Part 1: http://youtu.be/5GF5iRgYWpo

Part 2: http://youtu.be/-W52y1USfAg (this is more related to traditions of men)

God Bless.

TruthInLove
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Re: The Woman and the Dragon in revelation 12

Post by TruthInLove » Fri Jan 02, 2015 2:10 am

Hi robbyyoung,

Thank you so much for your response! I've reviewed the video links you gave. The link you listed 1st seems to be the most relevant to this topic since this is where Mr. Rood acknowledges several of the same historical celestial events that Dr. Martin has identified. They both agree that one of these events bears a striking resemblance to the Woman at the beginning of Revelation 12 (between time markers 12:09-12:56 in your 1st video link).

However, I might point out a few differences in their interpretations. It seems Mr. Rood and Dr. Martin are in disagreement on at least 3 points:

First, they seem to disagree about what the crown of 12 stars refers to. Mr. Rood associates the crown of 12 stars with the stars in the constellation Leo in which Jupiter came into the 1st of 3 very close conjunctions with Regulus (between time markers 12:09-12:56). Incidentally, this was happening at the same time the sign of the Woman occurred. Dr. Martin on the other hand associates the crown with the 12 visible stars in the constellation Coma Berenices (The Diadem/Crown) which resides directly over Virgo's head.

Second, they also seem to disagree about when Christ was actually born. Mr. Rood associates the birth of Christ with the 1st day of the Feast of Tabernacles in an unspecified year (between time markers 10:45-11:38) whereas Dr. Martin associates the time of Christ's birth at the precise interval of time when the sign of the Woman appeared.

The third point of disagreement seems to be the identification of the astral sign that the Magi saw and interpreted announcing the birth of Christ. Mr. Rood associates this with the sign of the Woman and the 1st Jupiter-Regulus conjunction (between time markers 12:09-12:56). Dr. Martin identifies the sign witnessed by the Magi as a sequence of celestial events involving Jupiter - most notably 2 exceedingly close conjunctions with Venus and the previously mentioned 3 conjunctions with Regulus. (see points IV.F.1,3 & 4 and V.C.4,6 & 9 in the outline at http://versebyverse.org/doctrine/birthofchrist.html)

While the interpretation adopted by Mr. Rood has certainly it's merits, I personally think Dr. Martin's interpretation fits much better with the other independent evidence which he presents in detail in his book.

At any rate, thank you very much for your reply. If you feel inclined to investigate Dr. Martin's work further, please let me know your thoughts.

Blessings

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