Question for Preterists

[robbyyoung]

Robby,

You remind me of Ron, a man at work years ago. Ron was very much in the "once saved, always saved" camp. We had a lunchtime bible study with a few Christian men and if you disagreed with Ron about his position he would loudly declare "you aren't arguing with me, you are arguing with the word of God!"

I was never much impressed with that tactic.

You wrote:

Matthew's account: Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing THEM in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching THEM to observe all that I have commanded YOU. ALL THESE ACCOUNTS ARE CONFLATED WITH A MEANS TO AN END - And behold, I am with YOU always, to the end of the age.

One aspect of The Gospel's means entailed a 1st Century Old Covenant END.

Seeing that the Old Covenant had ended at Calvary:

Colossians 2:14 (NASB)

14. having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

And the New Covenant would be ratified in His blood, in Jesus' own words:

Matthew 26:28 (NASB)

28. for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

And the writer of Hebrews affirms as much:

Hebrews 9:25-26 (NASB)

25. nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26. Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

The Old covenant ended at the cross, not 70 AD. The commission Jesus gave to his disciples was not a means to an end of the Old Covenant, it had ended at the cross. The commission to go into all the world and make disciples was given after the cross and resurrection which marked the end of the Old Covenant. It was a commandment (Greek imperative). They were told to make disciples by baptizing converts and teaching them to obey all He had commanded them which included making disciples so, collectively, all disciples down through the ages are obliged to carry out the great commission until Jesus comes again. And His promise to be with them, and us, is still in effect.

Hi Homer,

Excellent scripture references to support your understanding. However, you are forgetting one little thing, which is, The High Priest (Yeshua) MUST come out of the Holy of Holies to present himself ALIVE, indicating that the offering was accepted, please continue reading the context of Heb 9:25-26 with vs. 28! What you have pointed out was none other than the "Already but Not Yet" reality of scripture, please read Heb 8:13. The Old Covenant WAS NOT completely consummated at The Cross, if it was, The Jews and The Apostle Paul in Acts 21 would not have been observing what Yeshua spoke of in Matt 5. Therefore, consummation happened in 70 AD in which the entirety of the Law of Moses was satisfied.

God Bless!

[jriccitelli]

I’m sure the Old covenant ended with His death, as it says elsewhere the Covenant ends with the one who made it, and upon His death the ones under it are freed. Also His death ended the law of sacrifice, for those who believe, and no more sacrifices were needed. As for Hebrews 9:28, I think it says just that. As far as the priest coming out alive, that is a good point, yet Jesus was raised alive on the third day! So, I guess you are thinking the man made temple had to be destroyed, but the tearing of the veil was enough to declare the priesthood had ended.

[robbyyoung]

I’m sure the Old covenant ended with His death, as it says elsewhere the Covenant ends with the one who made it, and upon His death the ones under it are freed. Also His death ended the law of sacrifice, for those who believe, and no more sacrifices were needed.

Hi JR,

As you know Christ is the fulfillment of The Law. I agree the Old Covenant had a spoken fulfillment at the completion of The Cross (Passover, the 1st of 7 feasts), however, consummation of The Old Covenant in NO WAY was completed. Yeshua said NOTHING will pass from The Law until Heaven and Earth passed away. He also said ANYONE who teaches otherwise will be called least in The Kingdom of Heaven. We must account for the other 6 Feast Days remaining which in NO way represented fulfillment at The Cross, the Anti-Type of Passover. The Law, in its entirety, will still be in effect until consummation. All The Apostles remained stedfast in ALL The Law observances because they knew what Yeshua said and knew perfectly well what the passing of Heaven and Earth meant, The Temple and government of Old Covenant Judaism.

As for Hebrews 9:28, I think it says just that.

JR, we must maintain the immediate context, to include the overall context of the message. The Writer of Hebrews is discussing concepts that are clearly of a Jewish nature. Verse 21 through 24 is giving the account of what the High Priest functions are on The Day of Atonement. The High Priest must come out of the Holy of Holies and appear before the people. Verse 28 is speaking to this fact.

As far as the priest coming out alive, that is a good point, yet Jesus was raised alive on the third day!

Yeshua's resuurection fulfilled the 3rd Feast Day, First Fruits. As our High Priest, He didn't even appear before The Father yet during this time.

So, I guess you are thinking the man made temple had to be destroyed, but the tearing of the veil was enough to declare the priesthood had ended.

JR, the Priesthood DID in effect end, however, consummation of The Law was still outstanding. Matt 5, Acts 21 and Heb 8:13 would make no sense otherwise. Not to mention the remaining Feast Days yet to be fulfilled.

Your thoughts and God Bless!

[steve7150]

All The Apostles remained stedfast in ALL The Law observances because they knew what Yeshua said and knew perfectly well what the passing of Heaven and Earth meant, The Temple and government of Old Covenant Judaism.









All the law observances? If that means the Old Covenant, i don't think so. Paul contrasted the Old Covenant with the New Covenant quite sharply and if Paul believed this way then all the Apostles believed the same. So since Paul contrasted the two covenants and since the Apostles followed the New Covenant , they couldn't keep both. In 2 Cor 3.6 Paul said "who also made us sufficient as ministers of the New Covenant , NOT of the letter but of the Spirit for the LETTER KILLS but the Spirit gives life." Here Paul says the LETTER or Old Covenant kills and then contrasts it with the New Covenant which he says gives life.
Additionally Paul says "if righteousness comes through the law then Christ died IN VAIN." Gal 2.21

So here Paul said righteousness did not come through the law so why would he and the other Apostles follow it. The Apostles may have kept some things in the law out of tradition but they didn't follow the Old Covenant. Paul said "And i testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law." Gal 5.3

I think Zechariah prophecied that the Old Covenant ended on the cross which i think is heaven and earth passing away. Christ dying on the cross was like the old universe passing away whereas the temple of Solomon had already been destroyed in 586BC and the second temple destruction was already not a unique event plus this second temple was not even the equal of Solomon's original temple.

In Zechariah 11.10 "And i took my staff, Beauty and cut it in two that i might BREAK the covenant which i had made with all the people, so it was broken ON THAT DAY."

Notice it was broken on a single day, "with all the people", which meant Israel and Judah in that context. In Zech 11.13 "And the Lord said to me , Throw it to the potter (potters field) that princely price they set on me. So i took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord for the potter."

So this refers to the betrayl of Jesus by Judas for the thirty pieces of silver and this scenerio led up to the cross , but back in Zech 11.10 the Shepherd himself is BREAKING THE COVENANT therefore it happened at the cross. The destruction of the temple in 70AD was the inevitable result of the breaking of the Old Covenant but it ended on the cross.

Lastly i think the Old Covenant ended when Jesus died on the cross and was confirmed by the curtain in the temple being torn in two by God.

[dwilkins]

The book of Hebrews is one of the most important books in the New Testament (yes, some are more important than others) since it explains the transitions between the covenants. While I agree with Paidon that Paul did not continue his relationship with God under the Old Covenant, that doesn't mean the Old Covenant ended. In fact, the events of the cross that Paidon cited were what made the Old Covenant obsolete. But, it was still waiting to pass away as of 65AD. The reason it could not have passed away at that point is that the Old Covenant is full of prophecy that had to be fulfilled. Though the basis for salvation had been provided under a new covenant, the terms of the ending of the old one hadn't completely come to pass. Those terms required that as part of the Old Covenant someday the faithful would be justified in a judgment scene before God. Their enemies would be punished. The Apostate members of the nation would be put to the sword. That didn't happen at the cross.

But, Paidon is correct that Paul was not an observant Jew under the Old Covenant (a mistake that preterists from the Covenant Eschatology camp generally make). He considered himself to have died to it so that he could marry another, making a New Covenant (cf Romans 7) with God. He was free to go to Synagogue or a festival if he wanted in order to become all things to all people, but he realized that there was no legitimate religious power in such things. They only gained him access to teach about the New Covenant.

Doug

[robbyyoung]

Hi steve7150 and Doug,

Thanks for making excellent points in the discussion concerning the timing of the beginning of the end of the Old Covenant, the transition period and final consummation. For I believe the evidence shows this to be the order of fulfillment. Following Yeshua's lead, He NEVER said, DO NOT follow The Law. No, He said, The Law will be in full effect until Heaven and Earth passes away. Therefore, If The Transition Period denotes The Apostles heeding the words of Yeshua, 'If any man teaches others NOT to follow The Law, they will be called least in The Kingdom of Heaven.' by default, we can ascertain Heaven and Earth DID NOT pass away yet. Therefore we read:

Acts 1:6 So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"

After The Resurrection and just prior to Yeshua's ascension the disciples were still expecting the Old Testament kingdom of Israel to be restored. That expectation shows that the disciples were probably still observing the laws of the Torah, just as Yeshua said in Matt 5. They knew that the restoration of the kingdom of Israel was dependent on Israel's obedience to the law. In fact, Yeshua told them to go to Jerusalem to wait on the promise. How they did so is important to note:

Acts 1:12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the hill called the Mount of Olives, a Sabbath day's walk from the city.

When Luke wrote this story many years later, he was still measuring distances according to the traditional Jewish Sabbath laws.

Acts 2:5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.
Acts 2:14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: "Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say.

Peter was speaking to Jews from all over the world that had come to Jerusalem to observe the Feast of Pentecost. Now if Yeshua had already done away with these feasts, this would have been a great time for Peter to explain to all these people that they no longer needed to waste their time and resources coming to Jerusalem for the feasts. But in his sermon Peter did not even allude to any such changes to the law.

Acts 2:46,47 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
Acts 3:1 One day Peter and John were going up to the temple at the time of prayer at three in the afternoon.

These first Christians didn't go off by themselves to worship away from the noise and bustle of the Jewish temple. Rather, they continued to meet at the temple where the regular Jewish worship rituals and animal sacrifices were going on.

If the Christians were not living according to the Torah, why did they choose to meet in the very place where the Torah was still being taught and practiced? Actually, if the Christians had been breaking the Jewish religious laws they would not have been welcome in the temple courts, and they would not have enjoyed the favor of the other Jews who had come to the temple to worship.

Acts 5:11-13 Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events. The apostles performed many miraculous signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon's Porch. No one else dared join them, even though they were highly regarded by the people.

The Christians continued to meet at the temple and they were still respected by the Jewish worshipers that came to the temple to offer sacrifices. That makes it evident that the apostles were not preaching in opposition to the rituals of the temple.

Acts 5:34 But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while.
Acts 5:38-40 Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God." His speech persuaded them.

By this time the apostles were well known in Jerusalem. If they were not living according to the Torah, the people would have known about it. Gamaliel said, "If it is from God ... you will only be fighting against God". It's highly unlikely that Gamaliel would have been able to convince the rest of the Jewish Sanhedrin that Torah-breaking men might possibly be working for God.

Acts 6:11-14 Then they secretly persuaded some men to say, "We have heard Stephen speak words of blasphemy against Moses and against God." So they stirred up the people and the elders and the teachers of the law. They seized Stephen and brought him before the Sanhedrin. They produced false witnesses, who testified, "This fellow never stops speaking against this holy place and against the law. For we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs Moses handed down to us."

The enemies of Stephen would not have needed the false witnesses if Stephen had been disobeying the laws of the Old Testament. In that case, truthful witnesses would have easily condemned him before the Sanhedrin. The fact that they needed false witnesses to accuse Stephen implies that he was actually obedient to the laws of the Torah.

Acts 22:19 'Lord,' I replied, 'these men know that I went from one synagogue to another to imprison and beat those who believe in you.'
Acts 26:11 Many a time I went from one synagogue to another to have them punished, and I tried to force them to blaspheme. In my obsession against them, I even went to foreign cities to persecute them.

In order to worship or teach in the synagogues, the Christians would have needed to observe the Jewish Sabbath as well as enough of the other Old Testament laws to be accepted as Jews in the synagogues. Since Saul needed to force the Christians to blaspheme, it is likely they weren't guilty of intentionally breaking any of the laws of the Torah.

Acts 9:10-11 In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias!" "Yes, Lord," he answered. The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying.
Acts 22:12 "A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there."

The law that Paul mentions here was undoubtedly the law of Moses because in Acts 22 Paul was defending himself before a crowd of Jews who would not have accepted any other law as valid.

It is evident that Ananias was not just an oddball among the Christians because he was highly respected by all the Jews in Damascus. At that time all the Christians were Jews, and in Damascus the Christians met in the synagogues with the Jews. Ananias had the respect of both the Christian Jews and the non-Christian Jews.

God also approved of Ananias. Out of all the available Christians, Ananias was selected as the one to restore Saul's sight, baptize him with the Holy Spirit, and commission him as an apostle.

The description of Ananias as a "devout observer of the law" clearly confirms what could only be inferred from the earlier evidence in Acts -- the followers of Jesus had not yet abandoned the observance of Old Testament laws.

Clearly, Heaven and Earth, as eluded to by Yeshua - DID NOT pass away at The Cross. For if it did, The Holy Spirit would have confirmed the end of The Law early in the Christian Ministry as outlined in the above accounts. What we have is two Covenants overlapping as one is coming to a close.

Your thoughts and God Bless.

[Homer]

Clearly, Heaven and Earth, as eluded to by Yeshua - DID NOT pass away at The Cross

You are correct, heaven and earth are still here...that is unless you assign an esoteric meaning to "heaven and earth", which you obviously do. I have searched the scriptures extant at the time Jesus spoke the words, for every use of the words together, or even close together, and I have been unable to find a case where the words appear to mean what you think. Virtually all use in the OT refers to the actual heaven(s) and earth.

Where do you get your idea?

[dizerner]

[user account removed]

[robbyyoung]

Clearly, Heaven and Earth, as eluded to by Yeshua - DID NOT pass away at The Cross

You are correct, heaven and earth are still here...that is unless you assign an esoteric meaning to "heaven and earth", which you obviously do. I have searched the scriptures extant at the time Jesus spoke the words, for every use of the words together, or even close together, and I have been unable to find a case where the words appear to mean what you think. Virtually all use in the OT refers to the actual heaven(s) and earth.

Where do you get your idea?

Hi Homer,

That's a fair question, I'll give you a couple of accounts that should make the point. Again, I contend that The Jews knew full well what heaven and earth meant to them by way of their covenant agreement with YAHWEH. Note the following:

Leviticus 26:14-20 'But if you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments, and if you despise My statutes, or if your soul abhors My judgments, so that you do not perform all My commandments, but break My covenant, I also will do this to you: I will even appoint terror over you, wasting disease and fever which shall consume the eyes and cause sorrow of heart. And you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. I will set My face against you, and you shall be defeated by your enemies. Those who hate you shall reign over you, and you shall flee when no one pursues you. 'And after all this, if you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. I will break the pride of your power; I will make your heavens like iron and your earth like bronze. And your strength shall be spent in vain; for your land shall not yield its produce, nor shall the trees of the land yield their fruit.

Is this talking about the literal heavens and earth? Of course not. Notice how the character of Israel's disposition in God's view is personalized, "YOUR heaven" and "YOUR earth." So the terms "heaven" and "earth" belong or relate to Israel, they evidently constitute a "heaven" and "earth." I would also like to point out the covenantal language concerning the curses that would come upon Israel if they disobeyed, note the same language as used in The Revelation, "then I will punish you seven times more for your sins." As in the seven seals, bowls and trumpets.

Here's an oracle against Babylon and their power (Heavens and earth):

Isaiah 13:1 The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw.

Isaiah 13:6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.

Isaiah 13:9-13 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine. "I will punish the world for its evil, And the wicked for their iniquity; I will halt the arrogance of the proud, And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold, A man more than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place, In the wrath of the LORD of hosts And in the day of His fierce anger.

Isaiah 13:17 "Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, Who will not regard silver; And as for gold, they will not delight in it.

This is an historical event that took place in 539 BC. When the Medes destroyed Babylon the Babylonian world came to an end.

This should suffice for now, however, there is more evidence in the Bible relating to my contention. Furthermore, Yeshua and The Apostles never spoke in a vacuum. Their ideas and understanding came from the Old Covenant language. Sometimes, Heaven and Earth conflates with world powers/governments as outlined above.

Your thoughts and God Bless.

[Homer]

Hi Robby,

That seems to be very nebulous proof that Jesus used "heaven and earth" in the sense you understand it. I realize it is very important to your paradigm.

I do not question that Jesus may have used "heaven and earth" in a figurative sense, but maybe not. Jesus may well have been saying that God's redemptive purpose revealed in the OT through, not just "the law", but also the prophets, would all certainly be fulfilled. The term "the Law", as used by Jesus, certainly could include the prophetical books of the OT for Jesus said:

John 10:34 (NASB)

34. Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’?


Note that Jesus referred to the law and quoted Psalm 82:6.

In the SOM Jesus overturned the law regarding divorce, so how can it be said He meant the entire law (jot and tittle) was still in effect until 70 AD? And Jesus pointedly and repeatedly violated their understanding of Sabbath keeping by healing on the Sabbath, in every case a healing of a chronic condition that could have waited for another day.