Question for Preterists

[TheEditor]

Hi Robby and Homer,

Wow Robby.....I finally agree with you on something. I would say yes, that people are judged according to what they did with the light that they have. I don't think that they are required to hear a "Gospel presentation" no matter how inept it may be.

Homer, I think maybe I wasn't clear enough in what I meant. The typical "Fundamentalist Christian" position as I understand it, is that people have an opportunity or not based on the witness they receive, and if they never receive such a witness, then, oh well. At least that is how it has been presented to me by people I encountered during my days as a JW Evangelist (Pioneer).

I challenge that particular notion. Either they are held as fully accountable as Christians are, or they are not. If they are, then of neccesity they must have a witness, else they are being held to a different standard. My disagreement with you was only in the idea of anti-individualism. There may have been a "collective guilt" or "community responsibility" notion in the OT when the Jews were in a covenant relationship as a corporate body, but I think that however that may have worked and to what extent it did, was tossed out the window with the Ranson of Jesus.

Enjoy your posts as well and Happy Thanksgiving to you and all.

Regards, Brenden.

[Homer]

Brenden,

OK, we are even. I wasn't as clear as I should have been either. You wrote:

My disagreement with you was only in the idea of anti-individualism. There may have been a "collective guilt" or "community responsibility" notion in the OT when the Jews were in a covenant relationship as a corporate body, but I think that however that may have worked and to what extent it did, was tossed out the window with the Ranson of Jesus.

I do not believe we will be judged collectively. What I meant was that I think the gospel being taken to all nations could be fulfilled if it was preached in a particular nation, but not necessarily heard by every individual in that nation. Jesus said that the gospel was to go to the Jews first, and then the gentiles, but I doubt whether every individual Jew was preached to before the gospel was taken to the gentiles.

As I understand the preterist argument, the gospel being taken to all nations was literally fulfilled, but in a limited sense, i. e. "all nations" means only those surrounding the Mediterranean. I'm thinking "all nations" means every people group, worldwide, but not all individuals within the group.

I fail to see why Jesus' concern would be limited to the Mediterranean area.

[robbyyoung]

As I understand the preterist argument, the gospel being taken to all nations was literally fulfilled, but in a limited sense, i. e. "all nations" means only those surrounding the Mediterranean. I'm thinking "all nations" means every people group, worldwide, but not all individuals within the group.

I fail to see why Jesus' concern would be limited to the Mediterranean area.

Hi Homer,

Yeshua's concern was focused on the end of the age, Matt. 28:20 "...And behold, I am with YOU always, to the end of the age." The "YOU" refers to The Disciples of the 1st Century, for the EVENT, "the end of the age", was specific to THEM. Here's another passage that makes "The Great Commission" a 1st Century "age ending" event: Mark 16:15 "And HE said unto THEM, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." The "HE" is Yeshua, the "THEM" is The Disciples. As recorded in THEIR ministry, this command was literally fulfilled in order to bring about "the end of the age". Also, if you look at the rest of the passage in Mark 16; verse 20 eludes to THEIR mission being accomplished: "And THEY went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with THEM, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen."

Homer, your mistake IS NOT recognizing the significance of "the end of the age". The Disciples and 1st Century Church had a once in a lifetime opportunity to participate in a clear CLOSE of an age, and an USHERING in of a NEW COVENANT AGE. The promises, works and prophecies surrounding this event WAS NOT given to us. It was given TO THEM. You must realize you ARE NOT at odds with me, but with scripture. I've just shown you in Mark's account that "The Great Commission" was specific to the 1st Century and described in the past tense as accomplished, "...and preached every where". This is just one of many examples. For brevity, I'm not going to list the numerous accounts regarding the supporting verses which conflates with verse 20.

I've responded to your quote in order to help you NOT fail to see anymore. Our witness or "Great Commission", post 70 AD, is of a different nature. It's not about an age ending event, rather, it's about The Father showing the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness in Christ Jesus (Eph 2:7).

God Bless and Happy Thanksgiving!

[robbyyoung]

Hi Robby and Homer,

Wow Robby.....I finally agree with you on something. I would say yes, that people are judged according to what they did with the light that they have. I don't think that they are required to hear a "Gospel presentation" no matter how inept it may be.

Hi Brenden,

Happy Thanksgiving!

[Homer]

Hi Robby,

You wrote:

I've responded to your quote in order to help you NOT fail to see anymore. Our witness or "Great Commission", post 70 AD, is of a different nature. It's not about an age ending event, rather, it's about The Father showing the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness in Christ Jesus (Eph 2:7).

Since (you say) the great commission only was pertinent to those spoken to and was in force only until 70 AD, and you also tell us all of the New Testament was written to and for those persons prior to 70 AD, where do we find a commission revealed to anyone post 70 AD? It seems to me Jesus' commission that we read of, being variously described in at least Matthew, Mark, and Luke, is the only commission He gave.

[robbyyoung]

Hi Robby,

You wrote:

I've responded to your quote in order to help you NOT fail to see anymore. Our witness or "Great Commission", post 70 AD, is of a different nature. It's not about an age ending event, rather, it's about The Father showing the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness in Christ Jesus (Eph 2:7).

Since (you say) the great commission only was pertinent to those spoken to and was in force only until 70 AD, and you also tell us all of the New Testament was written to and for those persons prior to 70 AD, where do we find a commission revealed to anyone post 70 AD? It seems to me Jesus' commission that we read of, being variously described in at least Matthew, Mark, and Luke, is the only commission He gave.

Hi Homer,

The sending forth of The Gospel (The Great Commission) was pertinent to the 1st Century audience BECAUSE of the PENDING AGE ENDING EVENT. What do you mean, "since (you say)"? Stop making this about me and start paying attention to what Yeshua said. Here it is again:

Mark's account: And HE said unto THEM, Go YOU into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature... And THEY went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with THEM, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Luke's account: Then opened HE THEIR understanding, that THEY might understand the scriptures, and said unto THEM... and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Matthew's account: Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing THEM in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching THEM to observe all that I have commanded YOU. ALL THESE ACCOUNTS ARE CONFLATED WITH A MEANS TO AN END - And behold, I am with YOU always, to the end of the age.

One aspect of The Gospel's means entailed a 1st Century Old Covenant END. If you can't see that certain events (surrounding the lifetime of the Apostles) were for a specific people at a specific time, you are not paying close enough attention. Homer, do you have or can you obtain an old church bulletin? I have a couple that's probably at least 7 years old or more. Inside you will find many biblical truths that could apply to all of us, past and present. But what about the events described in the bulletin, such as:

1. The Living Last Supper on Thursday, at 7:30 p.m. in The Chapel
2. Sight and Sound fellowship on Saturday, go see Ruth for the details
3. Christian Women of the Chapel donation drive on Friday, at 7:00 a.m.
etc...

Homer, if I gave you this church bulletin to read, and after you've read its exhortations applying to all, and you then start to read about the activities of the church, would you be looking to participate in these events? Especially if I told you this bulletin was 7 years old!

Would you go to see Ruth this Saturday?
Would you be going to the Chapel at 7:30 p.m. this Thursday for The Living Last Supper?

Of course NOT! Because these events were for a specific people at a specific time. These events have already taken place. This is exactly what' going on when we read The Bible. There are biblical truths which apply to everyone, past and present. But we CANNOT hi-jack specific events which pertain to a specific audience in time almost 2000 years ago. This is nonsensical and a major error, no different than misapplying a 7 year old church bulletin activities.

You also asked, "Where do we find a commission revealed to anyone post 70 AD?" Well post 70 A.D. we have The New Jerusalem and The Bride, which is none other than The Body of Christ, Believers. After the age ending event in 70 A.D. we read in Rev 22:17 "The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost." So yes, we are "commissioned" to bring others into The Body. Our gospel message does not include an age ending event, rather, Eph 2:7 "The Father showing the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness in Christ Jesus." Amongst other soul saving good news.

God Bless.

[Mitzi]

So is there some sort of formula for determining what in Revelation and the entire New Testament is meant for the Church age and what was just for
prior 70a.d.? Who decides what? Is it automatically assumed that everything is pre-70 a.d. unless we can discern otherwise from the text?

[steve7150]

So is there some sort of formula for determining what in Revelation and the entire New Testament is meant for the Church age and what was just for
prior 70a.d.? Who decides what? Is it automatically assumed that everything is pre-70 a.d. unless we can discern otherwise from the text?










It's a matter of individual judgment and discernment and that's why there are several different points of view. Some things are pretty obvious but other things like most of Revelation are very symbolic and people interpret symbols differently.

[jriccitelli]

Homer, your mistake IS NOT recognizing the significance of "the end of the age"

Homer, I think Robby has got you pinned. You see the Judgment has come, and the end has past.
And Robby that was in jest to Homer, but I admit I am seeing some light in your points, and agree to the rational on some of these points.

The promises, works and prophecies surrounding this event WAS NOT given to us. It was given TO THEM. (Robby)

I agree that it was, and so this is the context of a lot of important promises, such as the one given to Abraham, but Abraham's seed is still here, and his children are still being born. The blessings, curses and commands in scripture are often given to one, but it quickly becomes clear, and affirmed, and repeated in scripture that these things start applying to almost everyone (as you may agree). They are given to some, but they become 'our' example. The commands blessings and curses given to Adam and Eve (Gen.1-3) are much like the blessings and such given to others later on:
'To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." 17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. 18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. 19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return"

'If you can't see that certain events (surrounding the lifetime of the Apostles) were for a specific people at a specific time, you are not paying close enough attention' (Robby)

“… but make them known to your sons and your grandsons. 10 "Remember the day you stood before the LORD your God at Horeb, when the LORD said to me, 'Assemble the people to Me, that I may let them hear My words so they may learn to fear Me all the days they live on the earth, and that they may teach their children…' (Deut 4)
If their children teach their children, then the cycle will never end, thus this statement is good until they all stop producing kids. once you start teaching the children, these commands begin to start applying to all the children, that was the command, afterall.

All of them will be taught, this then must 'still' be in effect: "All your sons will be taught of the LORD; And the well-being of your sons will be great’ (Isaiah 54:13) Now about brotherly love we do not need to write to you, for you yourselves have been taught by God to love each other’ (1 Thes.4:9) I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 “He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 “I will be a father to him and he will be a son to Me; when he commits iniquity, I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men’ (1 Samuel 7)
We now know that God had one greater than Solomon in mind when He said this, but the context allows for both, kinda. Solomon’s kingdom didn’t last forever, but Jesus didn’t commit iniquity either.

'... and you then start to read about the activities of the church, would you be looking to participate in these events? (Robby)

I do look forward to participating in all the promises of scripture, I just don’t want to be an unbeliever during any of those events. If the church dinner didn’t actually come to past, then it didn’t come to pass. I would hope that the dinner will in fact happen sometime, and we are promised that it will happen. But the end of the age was not given a date or time, but an obligation to be ready and watch.
Feast at my banquet table--feast on horses and charioteers, on mighty men and all kinds of valiant warriors, says the Sovereign LORD’ (Ezek 39:20) ‘... that you may feast on the flesh of kings and the flesh of generals and the flesh of mighty men, on the flesh of horses and their riders, and on the flesh of ..." (Rev 19:18)
John repeats the same warning and promise given by Ezekiel, yet this did not happen in 70ad. I do though anticipate that it will happen.
And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one. 10 All the land will be changed into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem… ” (Zech 14:9)

[robbyyoung]

So is there some sort of formula for determining what in Revelation and the entire New Testament is meant for the Church age and what was just for prior 70a.d.? Who decides what? Is it automatically assumed that everything is pre-70 a.d. unless we can discern otherwise from the text?

Hi Mitzi,

The formula is "Exegesis"(Biblical exegesis involves the examination of a particular text of scripture in order to properly interpret it.), in other words, the following basic components of scripture are examined for clarity:

1. Textual/Translation
2. Literary Context
3. historical Context
4. Theological Communication
5. Application

You have asked a powerful, no nonsense question, "Who decides what?", in order to ascertain the "Application" component. We should all agree that the INSPIRED N.T. Authors/Prophets are the ones to make this determination. So what do WE find as WE read THEIR accounts and LETTERS addressed to THEIR AUDIENCE? To appreciate the enormity of the situation in the 1st Century one must FIRST come to grips that THEY are reading someone else's mail, which is almost 2000 years old. Who can deny we are reading an HISTORICAL account of long ago? All the contextual evidence speaks to THAT AUDIENCE concerning the consummation of events in THEIR lifetime. This IS NOT wishful thinking but A FACT. Now either they were right or wrong on the timing of events. Since there is no way around the fact concerning their timing language, some seek to prove "double fulfillment" arguments in order to rescue the integrity of The Holy Spirit on the timing issue. This stance is taken because of a wooden literalism approach to "HOW" these events transpired within the timing statements of the N.T. Writers. No, the timing was correct but our understanding of HOW these events transpired is WRONG.

Yeshua and all prophetic events concerning the End of the Age, which was to transpire in the 1st Century was NOT a TYPE or SHADOW, rather the ANTI-TYPE. Therefore double fulfillment is in error and can only apply to O.T. prophecies having a greater fulfillment in the 1st Century towards the End of the Age. Furthermore, only a Prophet of God is qualified to attribute a prophetic type or shadow to an anti-type. The last of The Prophets were in the 1st Century. Any O.T. prophecy attributed to the End of the Age was dealt with in the Apostolic Era. Those who attempt to circumvent what was relevant to apply to the anti-type by The N.T. Prophets, by adding additional O.T. prophecies are in error. The passages used were the passages needed to bring about fulfillment by the only qualified Prophets to do so.

Post 70AD, uninspired men and women sought out to reapply and reinterpret what the N.T. Prophets ordained as relevant ONLY to the "End of the Age", ushering in The Age to Come. Like the church bulletin example above, many seek to apply COMPLETED events to their lifetime. This might be scary for some folks, but it shouldn't be. We are in The Age to Come, The Kingdom Age which has NO END. We apply the timeless truths of how to live a righteous life towards God, all the while proclaiming The Good News, NOT to prepare for The End of the Age, but rather, The Father showing the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness in Christ Jesus. Amongst other soul saving good news.

God Bless.