Countdown to the Kingdom

[Allyn]

l2j,

You have said that you don't see how where in Hebrews, or anywhere else, that it tell us that the New Covenant awaits the final abolishing of the Old Covenant before being inaugurated, and/or, for that matter, where we are told, specifically, that Jesus' enemies become His footstool either 1)at the inauguration of the New Covenant as opposed to anytime during it's duration or 2)upon the final vanishing away of the Old Covenant?

Those things are revealed through the teaching of what the events are in the last days and what the timing those events must fall into. I have attempted to list in this thread the order of those events as I see them. Each of the events are either taught separately or in relation to the other events. Hebrews is not where we find all of them in one place. In this way Hebrews is no different from any other passage that helps in defining the event and the timing. But Hebrews is a big step in the direction of pinning the process down.

What I will do at this time is present the event left unfulfilled at the time of Jesus' crucifixion including the crucifixion and where in Scripture it is located. These examples are not exhaustive but they do well for the purpose of this thread concerning the countdown to the kingdom. I will start in the order of the books of the Bible and not the order of the events.

1. Sacrifice for the sins of the people. Leviticus 16
2. The right of the priest to declare something as desolate Leviticus 14
3. Scapegoat with the sins of the people released into the wilderness. Leviticus 16
4. The kingdom of God predicted as a kingdom built without hands and shown to be an everlasting kingdom. Daniel 2
5. The Abomination of Desolation is foretold. Daniel 12
6. The resurrection of the dead of Israel is predicted. Daniel 12
7. The timing of the resurrection of the dead of Israel is predicted. Daniel 12
8. Jesus declares the house of Jerusalem as desolate. Matthew 23
9. Jesus teaches concerning the timing of the Abomination of Desolation. Matthew 24
10. Paul teaches that the last enemy, Death, is defeated at the resurrection of the dead. 1Cor. 15
11. Paul teaches that the kingdom is handed back to God at or near the resurrection of the dead. 1Cor 15
12. The writer teaches that Jesus would come a second time. Hebrews 9
13 The writer teaches that the second coming is not for sin but for salvation. Hebrews 9
14. The writer teaches that the New Covenant comes in at the time when all enemies are made the footstool of Jesus. Hebrews 10
15. the writer teaches through the reference of Jer. 31 that the New Covenant and the enemies made His footstool are inter-related. Hebrews 10

The reasoning:

If Daniel was told that the time of the resurrection of his people would be at the time of the Abomination of Desolation, and if Jesus was saying that the Abomination of Desolation was at the destruction of Jerusalem, and if Paul taught that the last enemy Death was defeated and put under Jesus' feet at the resurrection, and if Paul taught that this would be the time when the kingdom would be handed to God, and if the new covenant passage of Jer 31 is quoted by Hebrews saying it would be in relation to the enemies made the footstool of Jesus, then it would proper to gather from these teaching that :
The Abomination of Desolation,
The resurrection of the dead of Israel,
All enemies are made His footstool,
The New Covenant in its fullness,
The second coming of Christ,
The handing over to God the Kingdom of Heaven,

Are all in one same period of time at the destruction of Jerusalem from AD 67 to AD 70.

[look2jesus]

Allyn,

Good evening. Everytime you post a reply to something I've said or asked I'm ending up with more questions, or more reasons to question some of the points that you have made, without getting an adequate answer to some of my initial inquiries regarding the proper establishing of your argument. I do understand that sometimes it takes a lot of back and forth and a lot of comparing scripture to scripture to get a proper understanding, and I will be patient but, at some point, you need to give me specific statements from the Scripture that support your argument, not personal interpretations of questionable passages, i.e., passages that might have more than one legitimate way of being interpreted. Know what I mean? Here are a few examples of some of the unsubstantiated claims that you have made that I'm trying to pin you down on.

1. Only Israel is a participant in the resurrection.
2. The 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem is equivalent (as far as the timing is concerned, at least) to all Jesus' enemies being made a footstool for His feet, as it says in Hebrews.
3. Jesus came only to the Jews.
4. Hebrews was a letter written to the Jews.
5.The final (earthly) abolishing of the Old Covenant is necessary before the New Covenant is fully inaugurated.

If Daniel was told that the time of the resurrection of his people would be at the time of the Abomination of Desolation, and if Jesus was saying that the Abomination of Desolation was at the destruction of Jerusalem, and if Paul taught that the last enemy Death was defeated and put under Jesus' feet at the resurrection, and if Paul taught that this would be the time when the kingdom would be handed to God, and if the new covenant passage of Jer 31 is quoted by Hebrews saying it would be in relation to the enemies made the footstool of Jesus, then it would proper to gather from these teaching that :
The Abomination of Desolation,
The resurrection of the dead of Israel,
All enemies are made His footstool,
The New Covenant in its fullness,
The second coming of Christ,
The handing over to God the Kingdom of Heaven,

Are all in one same period of time at the destruction of Jerusalem from AD 67 to AD 70.

But if you can't show that the establishment of the New Covenant is concomitant with Jesus' enemies being made His footstool, then your "house of cards" (no offense intended) begins to crumble and you are left with a questionable interpretation of Daniel 12, imo. Looking forward to more conversation.

l2j

[Allyn]

Allyn,

Good evening. Everytime you post a reply to something I've said or asked I'm ending up with more questions, or more reasons to question some of the points that you have made, without getting an adequate answer to some of my initial inquiries regarding the proper establishing of your argument. I do understand that sometimes it takes a lot of back and forth and a lot of comparing scripture to scripture to get a proper understanding, and I will be patient but, at some point, you need to give me specific statements from the Scripture that support your argument, not personal interpretations of questionable passages, i.e., passages that might have more than one legitimate way of being interpreted. Know what I mean? Here are a few examples of some of the unsubstantiated claims that you have made that I'm trying to pin you down on.

1. Only Israel is a participant in the resurrection.
2. The 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem is equivalent (as far as the timing is concerned, at least) to all Jesus' enemies being made a footstool for His feet, as it says in Hebrews.
3. Jesus came only to the Jews.
4. Hebrews was a letter written to the Jews.
5.The final (earthly) abolishing of the Old Covenant is necessary before the New Covenant is fully inaugurated.

If Daniel was told that the time of the resurrection of his people would be at the time of the Abomination of Desolation, and if Jesus was saying that the Abomination of Desolation was at the destruction of Jerusalem, and if Paul taught that the last enemy Death was defeated and put under Jesus' feet at the resurrection, and if Paul taught that this would be the time when the kingdom would be handed to God, and if the new covenant passage of Jer 31 is quoted by Hebrews saying it would be in relation to the enemies made the footstool of Jesus, then it would proper to gather from these teaching that :
The Abomination of Desolation,
The resurrection of the dead of Israel,
All enemies are made His footstool,
The New Covenant in its fullness,
The second coming of Christ,
The handing over to God the Kingdom of Heaven,

Are all in one same period of time at the destruction of Jerusalem from AD 67 to AD 70.

But if you can't show that the establishment of the New Covenant is concomitant with Jesus' enemies being made His footstool, then your "house of cards" (no offense intended) begins to crumble and you are left with a questionable interpretation of Daniel 12, imo. Looking forward to more conversation.

l2j

Its ok with me then if we go through the events one at a time and see if we can reach an understanding or an agreement. If you need to take the whole week to answer one point at a time then I am willing to spend the time doing it as well. If you agree with a question then please say yes. If you disagree I ask that you give a short reason why?

here are the first 10 questions:

1) Was the event described in the Olivet discourse by Jesus the same event that took place in AD 70 at the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple?

2) Was this also the time when the Abomination of Desolation was to happen?

3) Was the Abomination of Desolation Jesus spoke of the same as the Abomination of Desolation in Daniel 12?

4) Was the angel speaking only of Daniel's people in Daniel 12:1-3?

5) Were those who are found written in the book at the end of 12:1 only Daniel's people?

6) At the end of what days would Daniel then arise to his inheritance? Dan 12:13

7) Is verse 13 speaking of the resurrection?

8) Were verses 2 and 3 of Dan. 12 speaking about the resurrection of the dead?

9) Were the disciples who were with Jesus at the Olivet Discourse asking about what would be the sign of the end of the age or the end of the world?

10) Was the abomination of Desolation, Daniel was shown, to be at the end of the age or the end of the world? verse 11 of Dan. 12

[look2jesus]

Okay Allyn,

I'll be working on these points this week, as I have time. Thanks.

l2j

[Allyn]

Okay Allyn,

I'll be working on these points this week, as I have time. Thanks.

l2j

Hey look2jesus - how's the work coming on the 10 questions? No pressure except the hope that you haven't forgotten.

[look2jesus]

Hello Allyn,

Unfortunately, I've only had time to "think" about these things, and I've been trying to do some reading as well. As is the case with most of us, I assume, the time I'm able to spend on the forum comes at a premium, though I do try to check in on a daily basis and read the current posts and perhaps make a quick comment or two. I will try to have something up by Saturday, Lord willing. I'm looking forward to more discussion, as well. Thanks brother.

l2j

[Allyn]

I'm good with that. Take all the time you need.

[look2jesus]

Allyn,

I’m going to get to your list of questions but, before I do, I would just want to say that many times in this exchange, so far, you have not answered my specific questions or objections regarding your OP, or my follow up questions. You may feel that you have answered quite adequately, but, not really. I’m making an appeal to you that when I ask a question or pose an objection, that your answer be relevant to the point in dispute because, honestly, most of your answers, so far, have not spoken to the point of the specific question or objection, or else seem to be based on more of an inference you have taken from a passage rather than what is actually stated in the passages you quote. I will try, as best as I am able, to do the same as I respond to your questions or objections.

I would also want to say that I’m not sure how it is that the person who began this post (you) by making certain assertions, has come to be in the position of the one asking the questions of his objector (me) when it seems that, in the main, you should be the one answering my questions but, so be it (I'm not complaining, it's more of a curiosity). Here are my answers.

1. Was the event described in the Olivet discourse by Jesus the same event that took place in AD 70 at the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple?

Answer: Yes. Jesus had said that not one stone would be left sitting on another, speaking of the temple, and that is what the disciples had asked him about.

2. Was this also the time when the Abomination of Desolation was to happen?

Answer: Of course, just as Jesus said it was (Mt. 24:15).

3. Was the Abomination of Desolation Jesus spoke of the same as the Abomination of Desolation in Daniel 12?

Answer: In my opinion, yes.

4. Was the angel speaking only of Daniel's people in Daniel 12:1-3?

Answer: I think that Daniel would have understood the angel to be making reference to the nation of Israel but I think it can be shown that once Jesus arrived on the scene and began proclaiming the kingdom of God that something new was afoot, and we begin to see a difference between followers of Jesus and the sons of Israel. There was beginning to be a difference in what constituted a “true” Israelite. My belief is that long before the A.D. 70 destruction of Jerusalem, beginning by, at the latest, the close of Jesus’ earthly ministry the promises of God made to Israel began to be fulfilled in the church, so that, where Daniel is told that his people will be delivered “at that time”, this was fulfilled when the Christians were able to escape what befell their nation when Rome eventually destroyed the city.

5. Were those who are found written in the book at the end of 12:1 only Daniel's people?

Answer: It doesn’t say. It says only that of those that would be delivered, all of them are written in the book. It doesn’t state whether or not there may be more who are written in the book, who are not included in the particular deliverance spoken of by the angel. As to what it meant to be “Daniel’s people” at the time of fulfilment, please refer to answer no. 4.

6. At the end of what days would Daniel then arise to his inheritance? (Dan 12:13.)

Answer: At the end of the days, it reads. Based on my reading of the entire bible I would equate this with the time that Jesus comes again, as the angels described it in Acts 1:11.

7. Is verse 13 speaking of the resurrection?

Answer: Yes. I believe this verse is speaking about Daniel’s participation in the general resurrection when Jesus returns visibly, as mentioned in the answer above.

8. Were verses 2 and 3 of Dan. 12 speaking about the resurrection of the dead?

Answer: I’m going to give a brief answer here for now. As I stated earlier in this thread, I believe that a view of the general resurrection can be justified in this case. I also think that a “spiritual fulfilment” could easily be justified, even limiting it to the first century, if you consider that “those who sleep in the dust of the earth” actually speaks of spiritually dead inhabitants of Jerusalem in the first century who respond in various ways to the ministry of Christ. But I’m not sure one could be dogmatic either way. There are much clearer teachings regarding the timing of the resurrection elsewhere.

9. Were the disciples who were with Jesus at the Olivet Discourse asking about what would be the sign of the end of the age or the end of the world?

Answer: In my opinion, they were asking when the temple would be destroyed, which happened about 40 years later.

10. Was the abomination of Desolation, Daniel was shown, to be at the end of the age or the end of the world? (Verse 11 of Dan. 12.)

Answer: I believe that was fulfilled in A.D. 70.

Best Regards,

l2j

[Allyn]

Allyn,

I’m going to get to your list of questions but, before I do, I would just want to say that many times in this exchange, so far, you have not answered my specific questions or objections regarding your OP, or my follow up questions. You may feel that you have answered quite adequately, but, not really. I’m making an appeal to you that when I ask a question or pose an objection, that your answer be relevant to the point in dispute because, honestly, most of your answers, so far, have not spoken to the point of the specific question or objection, or else seem to be based on more of an inference you have taken from a passage rather than what is actually stated in the passages you quote. I will try, as best as I am able, to do the same as I respond to your questions or objections.

I would also want to say that I’m not sure how it is that the person who began this post (you) by making certain assertions, has come to be in the position of the one asking the questions of his objector (me) when it seems that, in the main, you should be the one answering my questions but, so be it (I'm not complaining, it's more of a curiosity). Here are my answers.

That is fair. I really do not intend to avoid questions put to me. I am eager and willing to answer the question when I see it and maybe that is what has happened here. Maybe I missed a majority of your questions. So what I have done is not read what your answers are to my 10 questions so that I can be fair and first answer your questions already put to me that you feel I have not answered. Please compile all the questions you have asked me that you think I have not answered and I will work on those questions with an answer.

[look2jesus]

Good morning, Allyn,

Feel free to read my answers. I will try and point out the questions I've asked and where your answers to those questions failed to address what I was really looking for from you later this evening, if I can. I've got a family work day, of sorts, going on today, out of town, so we'll see. Have a great Lord's day.

l2j