Aborted Thread

[mikew]

PLEASE DELETE THIS THREAD. The topic has not be discussed properly.

I was trying to get a feel about the issue posed (you can see the original question copied in one of the responses). So I want to preserve the original topic header for the real discussion.

[RND]

I keep seeing instances where people say that the Church is Israel.

How are views such as Post-Mil and Amil or preterism (including full preterism) affected if it isn't true that the Church is Israel?

Both Futurism and Preterism were church (RCC) inventions intended to counter the effects of the Reformation and frankly neither view has a scriptural leg to stand on. The Reformation rightly pointed the finger at the papacy as the antichrist of Daniel and Revelation through it's "historicist" view of Biblical eschatology.

The fact that the "church" has not "replaced" Israel is self-evident as well. Israel hasn't gone anywhere. It is metaphoric for the entire world. The sanctuary service instituted by God through Moses is a distinctive pattern for the actual salvation that the Lord offers a sinful world. All those that call on the name of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of their life become actual adopted members of the true Israel, the "seed" of Abraham. This is a far cry from those that wrongly insist that the modern-secular nation-state built on Roman civil law called the THE NATION OF ISRAEL is in fact related in anyway to the Israel of the Bible. It is not. "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation..." The Balfour Declaration of 1917 was solely an invention of Satan meant solely to divide man from the obvious truth.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.

Faith is taking God at His word - right now! And right now, if ye be Christ's then you are Abraham's seed and actual heirs of the promises God made to Abraham.

Gal 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

This is a common theme throughout all of scripture. We become children of Israel by volunteering to become children of Israel and we are children by "faith" in all that was promised Abraham.

[Mellontes]

I keep seeing instances where people say that the Church is Israel.

How are views such as Post-Mil and Amil or preterism (including full preterism) affected if it isn't true that the Church is Israel?

How would you explain the hundreds of OT prophecies originally given to Israel as being fulfilled either in Christ and/or to His church?

[mikew]

David,
I appreciate your zeal to respond. But please try to answer the question at hand.

I was asking "How are views such as Post-Mil and Amil or preterism (including full preterism) affected if it isn't true that the Church is Israel?"

[mikew]

I keep seeing instances where people say that the Church is Israel.

How are views such as Post-Mil and Amil or preterism (including full preterism) affected if it isn't true that the Church is Israel?

How would you explain the hundreds of OT prophecies originally given to Israel as being fulfilled either in Christ and/or to His church?

How does this answer my question?

[RND]

David,
I appreciate your zeal to respond. But please try to answer the question at hand.

I was asking "How are views such as Post-Mil and Amil or preterism (including full preterism) affected if it isn't true that the Church is Israel?"

Thank you Mike.

I should have included that both the "pre" and "amil" viewpoints are direct inventions of both the "futurist" and "preterist" views so I only see one view point as being accurate within the framework of scripture and that is of course the "post-mil" view. First resurrection, 1,000 years with Christ (earth's sabbath day), final cleansing, New Jerusalem. Home at last!

[Mellontes]

I am just going to speak within RND's comment...

Both Futurism and Preterism were church (RCC) inventions intended to counter the effects of the Reformation and frankly neither view has a scriptural leg to stand on. That's quite a statement! It definitely requires support. The Reformation rightly pointed the finger at the papacy as the antichrist of Daniel and Revelation through it's "historicist" view of Biblical eschatology. That's quite a statement too! It also requires support.

The fact that the "church" has not "replaced" Israel is self-evident as well. Israel hasn't gone anywhere. The church does not "replace" Israel. The church is Israel's fulfillment - Jew and Gentile in one body, the body of Christ, the church. This was the "mystery of the church." Remember the "promise of the Spirit"? It is metaphoric for the entire world. Wrong! How can the Gentile world be grafted into the original promises of all the world? It was first to the Jews, then fortunately to us... The sanctuary service instituted by God through Moses is a distinctive pattern for the actual salvation that the Lord offers a sinful world. All those that call on the name of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of their life become actual adopted members of the true Israel, the "seed" of Abraham. This is a far cry from those that wrongly insist that the modern-secular nation-state built on Roman civil law called the THE NATION OF ISRAEL is in fact related in anyway to the Israel of the Bible. It is not. "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation..." The second half of this comment seems quite fine but seems to be in contradiction of the first half. Am I missing something here?The Balfour Declaration of 1917 was solely an invention of Satan meant solely to divide man from the obvious truth. Regarding the Balfour Declaration, I have heard some things about German Jews helping the English in WW1. The declaration was direct result of that help. And if this is so, no wonder Hitler god rid of the treasoness Jews during WW2. Not supporting what he did by any means, but it does give food for thought as to why he specifically persecuted them...
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance [be] of the law, [it is] no more of promise: but God gave [it] to Abraham by promise.

Faith is taking God at His word - right now! And right now, if ye be Christ's then you are Abraham's seed and actual heirs of the promises God made to Abraham.

Gal 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

This is a common theme throughout all of scripture. We become children of Israel by volunteering to become children of Israel and we are children by "faith" in all that was promised Abraham. Yep, the promise to Abraham and his seed which was Christ

[Mellontes]

I keep seeing instances where people say that the Church is Israel.

How are views such as Post-Mil and Amil or preterism (including full preterism) affected if it isn't true that the Church is Israel?

How would you explain the hundreds of OT prophecies originally given to Israel as being fulfilled either in Christ and/or to His church?

How does this answer my question?

Perhaps it doesn't...my bad. But doesn't your question imply a rather lengthy dissertation otherwise?

[mikew]

How are views such as Post-Mil and Amil or preterism (including full preterism) affected if it isn't true that the Church is Israel?

How would you explain the hundreds of OT prophecies originally given to Israel as being fulfilled either in Christ and/or to His church?

How does this answer my question?

Perhaps it doesn't...my bad. But doesn't your question imply a rather lengthy dissertation otherwise?

I can pretty well guess that it would be detrimental unless the fulfillment of these prophecies could be explained without the Church being Israel. Of course that is kind of what you were saying but you turned it back on me to answer my question.

Now, for the case of full preterism, the question is just asking you to step away from the assumption that the Church is Israel and maybe just provide an example of something that doesn't logically appear to be fulfilled (when given the postulation that the Church isn't Israel).

I am probing here to see if the idea of the Church being Israel would appear to be central to these eschatological views or whether those views would just have to be adjusted if such premise was wrong.

[mikew]

David,
I appreciate your zeal to respond. But please try to answer the question at hand.

I was asking "How are views such as Post-Mil and Amil or preterism (including full preterism) affected if it isn't true that the Church is Israel?"

Thank you Mike.

I should have included that both the "pre" and "amil" viewpoints are direct inventions of both the "futurist" and "preterist" views so I only see one view point as being accurate within the framework of scripture and that is of course the "post-mil" view. First resurrection, 1,000 years with Christ (earth's sabbath day), final cleansing, New Jerusalem. Home at last!

Then I am not expecting an answer from you unless you have a keen insight into the effect upon such viewpoints.