Question in 2 Thess 2:1-2 "Gathering together to Him.&q

[Guest]

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. (2 Thess 2:1-2)

Hi, I'm wondering if anyone can help me make sense of this passage.

What was their "gathering together to Him.?"

[Guest]

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. (2 Thess 2:1-2)

Hi, I'm wondering if anyone can help me make sense of this passage.

What was their "gathering together to Him.?"

I take it to mean the same gathering as mentioned in 1 thes 4:15 as well as 2 Thes 1

2Th 1:10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
2Th 1:11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power,
2Th 1:12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,

If you read this straight through, without stopping at the chapter division, it seems to be speaking of the same coming, the time of our glorification with Christ at his second coming.

[Guest]

Here's a better question...How could they have thought that the Day of the Lord had already come? That is if they, including Paul were still living here on good ole terra firma?

And why would he have to give them any explanation? Couldn't he simply say, "open up the front door guys, look around."

If it meant some kind of literal physical rapture, and destruction of physical creation, then how could they have thought that it was past?

Oh...Wait...That's right, those preterists, Hymenaeus and Philetus were up to their shenanigans again.

Silly me, Pmike

[Guest]

Here's a better question...How could they have thought that the Day of the Lord had already come? That is if they, including Paul were still living here on good ole terra firma?

And why would he have to give them any explanation? Couldn't he simply say, "open up the front door guys, look around."

If it meant some kind of literal physical rapture, and destruction of physical creation, then how could they have thought that it was past?

Oh...Wait...That's right, those preterists, Hymenaeus and Philetus were up to their shenanigans again.

Silly me, Pmike

Romans 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

Yep, still groanin' and travialn'. So it aint happened yet.

[Guest]

If you read this straight through, without stopping at the chapter division, it seems to be speaking of the same coming, the time of our glorification with Christ at his second coming.

I see where you're going there. That's what I was thinking also... but. It seems if you continue to read, he's saying the lawless one will be brought to an end at His coming.

I guess I thought the lawless one lived in the first century.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

[Guest]

Romans 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

Yep, still groanin' and travialn'. So it aint happened yet.

Pre-Fall of Jerusalem Sean...Duuuuhhhhhh!!! Gosh!!! This is a passage that shows a transition being made, hence the term birth pangs. It was that transitional time while the old covenant was overlapping the new covenant. 30-70AD. Those FIRST believers were the FIRST fruits. Their suffering was from the conflict between the old covenant and the new. The OC Jews persecuting the NC Jews/Gentiles. Persecution from the outside didn't come until later. And the form of the relief that they received came in the form of God coming and wiping out those that were persecuting them. (See 2 Thess. 1) 2 Thess 6-10 was Paul confirming this same message. "it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and of those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed."

Those who troubled them were the same ones that crucified the Lord of Glory. They rejected Jesus Christ and the message of the Gospel.

Think about it. How could this be a message of comfort to very real people living at a very real point in time co-terminus with Paul that were suffering at the hands of people that were living at that same time, if it were talking about something some thousands of years later. 2 Thess 1 is not talking about something that is future to us. It is language that Paul is using that is in the same vein as many judgment passages in the OT.

Pmike

[Guest]

I see where you're going there. That's what I was thinking also... but. It seems if you continue to read, he's saying the lawless one will be brought to and end at His coming.

I guess I thought the lawless one lived in the first century.

Destroyed by the Coming of Christ?

Note that this passage 2 Thess 2:1-17 seems to say that the man of lawlessness will be destroyed by the coming of Christ (verses 8 and 9). So how can this be a past event if the coming of Christ is still future? Well, the Greek in this passage (2 Thess 2:8-9)is difficult to translate and can be rendered like this instead:

"8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and will overpower at the time of the appearance of his coming 9–whose coming is according to the working of Satan . . . . "

- as translated by Dr. Larry Pechawer, Prof. of Hebrew at Ozark Christian College

Here Christ still does the destroying, but not through the coming (paraousia) of Christ per se, but at the time of the lawless' one's appearance.

For a fuller explanation of this perspective, and how this verse can be translated this way according to Pechawer, see

http://www.lostjabez.com/rapture/manoflawlessness.php

or his book, "Leaving the Rapture Behind"

I'm curious to get feedback on Pechawar's alternate translation from those of you who might have some skill with Greek. Pechawar is said to be a "specialist in Hebrew and Aramaic writings" and a prof. of Hebrew. I don't know him well, I just happened to be intrigued by the argument he presented on this in his book.

Having said this, the whole "Man of Lawlessness" thing is a pretty new part of the puzzle for me, having always just assumed he was the same person as the Beast/ Anti-Christ .

[Guest]

Well, the Greek in this passage (2 Thess 2:8-9)is difficult to translate and can be rendered like this instead:

I must say that I am weary and kind of find it suspect when someone feels the need to make statements like...Well it COULD mean this. The only reason people make statements like this is because the plain meaning of a statement doesn't fit within the pale of their view.

The people that Paul was writing to at that time were being persecuted by the Jews that didn't accept Jesus as their promised Messianic figure. They were the ones being troubled and they were the ones that Paul said would be relieved by the Lord's coming.

Really...How would the coming of the Lord some thousands of years off in the future give those living in the first century any kind of relief from the very real persecution from which they were suffering?

It wouldn't. However those living at that time did receive relief from the persecutions that they were under when the Roman armies came down from the north and systematically wiped out upwards of 1.1 million of those that were persecuting them.

God used one nations armies to come in and conquer a rebellious nation over and over again in the OT and He did it again in the first century as well. And He left not one stone standing upon another in doing it.

Mike

[Guest]

Sorry, I don't know exactly what perspective you're coming from (regarding details), but are you saying that everything Paul had to say about the coming of Jesus in 1 and 2 Thessalonians happened in AD 70, including 1 Thess. 4:16-17? ("dead in christ rise first"/"caught up together")?

[Guest]

Romans 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

Yep, still groanin' and travialn'. So it aint happened yet.

Pre-Fall of Jerusalem Sean...Duuuuhhhhhh!!! Gosh!!! This is a passage that shows a transition being made, hence the term birth pangs. It was that transitional time while the old covenant was overlapping the new covenant. 30-70AD. Those FIRST believers were the FIRST fruits. Their suffering was from the conflict between the old covenant and the new. The OC Jews persecuting the NC Jews/Gentiles. Persecution from the outside didn't come until later. And the form of the relief that they received came in the form of God coming and wiping out those that were persecuting them. (See 2 Thess. 1) 2 Thess 6-10 was Paul confirming this same message. "it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and of those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed."

Those who troubled them were the same ones that crucified the Lord of Glory. They rejected Jesus Christ and the message of the Gospel.

Think about it. How could this be a message of comfort to very real people living at a very real point in time co-terminus with Paul that were suffering at the hands of people that were living at that same time, if it were talking about something some thousands of years later. 2 Thess 1 is not talking about something that is future to us. It is language that Paul is using that is in the same vein as many judgment passages in the OT.

Pmike

So you admit that the whole of creation no longer is in bondage to decay? And there is no more death morning crying or pain? There is not more curse? No more thorns an thistles? I hadn't noticed. Maybe if I try really hard I can convince myself these things are true. But that pesky thing known as reality keeps rearing it's ugly head.