The Narrow Path Ministries

Paidion wrote:Well, it's beyond me how anyone can claim that the things John saw in his vision, though we know they were "signified", all took place in 70 A.D.!

As for "the time draws near", the verb "eggizō" is sometimes used of things that might be near, but actually come later.

Consider Phillipians 2:29, 30

Receive [Epaphroditus] then in the Lord with all joy, and hold men like him in high regard; because he drew near to death for the work of Christ...

Yes, he drew near to death, because of his illness. Yet he didn't experience death until years later. Events can occur which will postpone that which draws near, or that to which we draw near.

Ok...So, Paidion...I guess this is pretty much a question for you. Are you suggesting that the Apocalypse was something that was, SOON...NEAR...AND AT HAND...But that something happened that caused God to change His mind???

Just curious...Because in chapter 21, Jesus sounds pretty serious, "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand."

Soooooooo...Can you explain to me what happened here? Cause it sounds like Jesus was pretty serious. What would have happened that made Jesus change His mind?

Pmike

I guess you mean chapter 22.

I'm not suggesting the Jesus changed his mind. While on earth, he also indicated that these things were near, as in Matthew 24.

He also said in the context of Matthew 24:

But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. Matthew 24:36

I suspect that the angel who was revealing these things to John did not know when these things would take place. Nor did Jesus who was speaking though the angel. The Father alone knows.

So it is up to the Father when he sees fit to accomplish what He wishes to accomplish. It is not necessary that any prophecy be fulfilled in detail. God changed his mind several times in the past, and didn't bring to pass what he had intended because of the repentance of people. There may be a similar reason for these things not to have yet come to pass. Indeed, if the world's people truly repent, they won't happen at all.

Paidion wrote:I guess you mean chapter 22. I'm not suggesting the Jesus changed his mind. While on earth, he also indicated that these things were near, as in Matthew 24.

So then if you are not suggesting that Jesus changed His mind...Then what happened in fulfillment of His prediction that was "AT HAND."

And then...If He DID changed His mind and relented...What was it that happened "historically" that would have caused Him to relent?

Either He relented or He didn't???

Pmike

So do you think that Jesus caused those things to happen which he predicted? (Or "will cause" them, if you're a futurist?)

Paidion wrote:So do you think that Jesus caused those things to happen which he predicted? (Or "will cause" them, if you're a futurist?)

I believe that they had to happen or He is a false prophet.

Deuteronomy 18:22 says, “If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.”

However just because judgment is prophesied, doesn't mean that it has to happen. We see that in the book of Jonah. But that is conditional based on repentance.

Jeremiah 18:8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it.

Jeremiah 26:3 Perhaps everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may relent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings.’

And so we are left with two choices. It happened within the time frame stated by our Lord, which is perfectly consistent throughout the Bible. Or there was repentance and restoration upon those whom the calamity was prophesied.

This Book of the Apocalypse was written to living people and therefore either what was prophesied happened within their life time or there was repentance and restoration and the prophecy made null.

And so I ask of you Paidion what repentance was there upon those who received the Apocolypse? And what proof do you have?

Pmike

I believe that they had to happen or He is a false prophet.

Deuteronomy 18:22 says, “If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.”

However just because judgment is prophesied, doesn't mean that it has to happen. We see that in the book of Jonah. But that is conditional based on repentance.

The two sentences I have reddened appear contradictory to me.
However, you may mean that if the prophecy is given as a conditional prophecy, it won't come true if the condition isn't met. This was not the case with Jonah.

Yahweh did not speak a conditional prophecy through Jonah, such as "Unless you repent, Ninevah will be destroyed in 40 days." Rather he spoke and unconditional prophecy through Jonah, "Yet 40 days and Ninevah will be destroyed."

Now just in case you say that this prophecy was meant to be conditional even if not specifically stated, but that the conditional clause was understood, I will quote the statement stated which indicates that this was not the case.

When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil ways, God changed his mind about the calamity that he had said he would bring upon them; and he did not do it. Jonah 3:10 NRSV {bolding mine}

I looked up the word translated "changed his mind" in the Greek Septuagint translation. The appropriate tense and person of the Greek word "metanoueō" is used. This word means "to have a change of mind". So God could have a change of mind only if he had actually intended to destroy Ninevah. If the prophecy were conditional, then he didn't have a change of mind at all. If the prophecy had meant, "Unless you repent, I will destroy Ninevah in 40 days", then God didn't change his mind. He acted according to his original intention.

It won't do to appeal to the Hebrew Masoretic text, the basis for the Hebrew Old Testament, a text from over 12 centuries later. For in that text, the Hebrew word is "nacham" which any Hebrew lexicon will tell you means "to be sorry, to regret". Unless God has acted contrary to his original intention, he would have no regret.

Conclusion: Because the Ninevites repented, God did do what he said he would do; he did not act in accordance with his original intention to destroy Ninevah. Therefore his absolute prophecy through Jonah ("Yet 40 days and Ninvah will be destroyed) did not come true.

And according to you, that makes Jonah a false prophet.

Paidion

Firstly...Is there actually some reason why you don't answer my questions?

Secondly...So are you suggesting that what Jonah did when he went into the city and said, "40 days and you guys are toast," was not a prophecy? And if not what do you call it?

Thirdly...And then how do we determine if the contents of the Apocalypse are the same things as what Jonah was doing?

Pmike