The Narrow Path Ministries

In another posting STEVE7150 made an interesting point.

The Thessalonians thought that they had missed Christ's second coming. Paul writes them to assure them that it had not happened and that there were a number of things that were to happen first.

If at the Lord return heaven and earth are to pass away...Why didn't Paul just tell them to look outside. I mean seriously...If the elements were to melt with a fervent heat, then how could they have missed it? Seriously...if the sun was supposed to go dark, the moon turn to blood, bodies coming up out of the ground, heavens passing away, elements melting with fervent heat, etc., etc.

If His return was to be "in LIKE manner." And EVERY eye would see Him.

HOW COULD THEY HAVE MISSED IT?

1 ¶ Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren,
2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3 ¶ Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition,
4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

They thought they had missed it because of the letters purporting to have come from the apostles, that the day of the Lord had come.

The only things Paul said would have to take place first was that the man of lawlessness be revealed. That man was understood by second-century Christians as the personal Antichrist.

Paul didn't mention say that those other phenomena which you mentioned, had to take place first.

Paidion wrote:1 ¶ Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren,
2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3 ¶ Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition,
4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

They thought they had missed it because of the letters purporting to have come from the apostles, that the day of the Lord had come.

The only things Paul said would have to take place first was that the man of lawlessness be revealed. That man was understood by second-century Christians as the personal Antichrist.

Paul didn't mention say that those other phenomena which you mentioned, had to take place first.

I think you are missing the point. If you are suggesting that first century Jews believed in a pre/mid-trib/pre-wrath rapture, then Paul would have simply said, "Ummm...guys, look around, we're not in Heaven."

If you are post-trib, he would have said, "Ummm...guys, look around, is this the new heavens and the new earth?"

Basically if todays futurist understanding is correct, then there should have been no question as to if they could have missed it.

mike

But Mike, you're making an argument from silence. Something on the lines of the following (put stellar disturbances in the blank spaces):

1. The Thessalonians thought the Day Of The Lord (DOTL) had come
2. In setting them straight, Paul didn't say anything about ________.
3. Thus, neither Paul not the Thessalonians expected ________ to acompany the DOTL.

This a logical fallacy known as a non-sequitur (Latin for "it does not follow") - i.e. the conclusion does not follow from the premises.

To demonstate this, we can put any number of other things in the spaces. For example, Paul didn't talk about the resurrection. He didn't mention the end of the Old Covenant. He didn't say anything about the destruction of Jerusalem. Now, full preterists say that all of these things occured on the DOTL in AD70. Are we to thus conclude that Paul and the Thessalonians were not expecting these things to happen?

As for there being no-question that they had missed the DOTL, perhaps the Thessalonians were falling under the influence of some proto-preterists who were convincing them that the DOTL was not something that would be witnessed by those who lived in Thessalonika. Maybe they were teaching that some famine in Israel was Jesus coming "invisibly" to judge Israel. Or perhaps it was some the crushing of some Jewish uprising.

Just curious Ely...Can you define what your eschatalogical expectations are? If I have ever known, I don't remember. Thanks

mike

psychohmike wrote:Just curious Ely...Can you define what your eschatalogical expectations are? If I have ever known, I don't remember. Thanks

mike

Sure, I'm basically Premill though not classic dispensationalist (for example, I'm expecting a post-trib rapture).

Ely wrote:

psychohmike wrote:Just curious Ely...Can you define what your eschatalogical expectations are? If I have ever known, I don't remember. Thanks

mike

Sure, I'm basically Premill though not classic dispensationalist (for example, I'm expecting a post-trib rapture).

thank you...

From a very wise, bearded, preterist friend.

Question BACKGROUND:
Acts 1
9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was
taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while
they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men
stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why
do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up
from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go
into heaven."

Jesus seems to ascend to heaven bodily, physically, visibly.
The angels said, "This same Jesus... will so come in like manner as
you saw Him go into heaven."

Question.
If the angels told the disciples that Jesus would come in a manner
like they saw him go into heaven, then how can we accept a non-bodily,
non-physical, non-visible [as described within the full preterist
position] coming of Jesus as "in like manner"?
It seems that a non-bodily, non-physical, non-visible coming is the
exact opposite of the bodily, physical, visible ascension witnessed by
the disciples.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My answer:
First, I posed this question as I often hear it asked, although I
think it is actually misleading.
It is misleading to emphasize that Jesus left this earth "bodily,
physically, visibly". A lot of discussion alone could revolve around
this single point, but for the sake of brevity, I'm going to focus my
effort upon figuring out what the focus was upon in Acts.
Recall the passage and note specifically what the angels say about
Jesus' coming, the very thing everyone is interested in.
They say, "[He] will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."
So, He will come as they saw Him go. That's all the detail we are given.
To know exactly what the angels are emphasizing will be similar at Jesus' coming is
admittedly difficult.
As a matter of fact, to act as though we can know exactly what the
angels were referring to would probably be overstating the specificity
given by the angles. Simply put, we don't get a lot of detail out of
this passage.

Nevertheless, I do admit the futurist have this passage on their
side. The most natural conclusion upon reading "He will come as they
saw Him go" is to expect a "bodily, physical, visible" coming.
I admit this may be the easiest conclusion, but I brought up the
vagueness of the angels statement to argue that there is some elbow
room for other interpretations.

So exploiting the vagueness, here is my argument; take it or leave it:


The angels said, "[He] will so come in like manner as you saw Him go
into heaven."

First question then: How did they see Him go into heaven?

The easy answer: "He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their
sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up"

Extrapolation/My Claim: The angels are saying, "Jesus will come in the clouds".

Justification/Argument: The ONLY three details given about Jesus' ascension I can see are:
1: He was taken
2: A cloud received Him (so that he disappeared)
4: He went up

Thus, only detail given that I think helps is the clouds.
(I don't expect the fact that he was taken or the fact that he went up to be what the angels may have been emphasizing)

So when the angles say "in like manner" and a key detail given
in acts is the CLOUD, it doesn't seem implausible to conclude it was the cloud they were
emphasizing.

So that's my basic argument, that they were emphasizing that he was taken up in a cloud.
You may take it or leave it.
I'm not saying it is the best argument, but I'm certainly saying it is not a bad one.
And not being a bad argument, allows me to accept it in light of the rest of scripture, in regards to preterism.

That said...
Why I really like my argument:
If the angels were simply saying Jesus will be coming in a cloud, then
it is the absolutely most fitting phrase to end Jesus ministry on
earth. As a matter of fact, it is like the icing on the cake
considering what Jesus had been teaching...

Matthew 24:30
"they will see [Me] coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
Matthew 26:64
"you will see [Me] sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming
on the clouds of heaven."
Mark 13:26
"they will see [Me] coming in the clouds with great power and glory."
Mark 14:62
"you will see [Me] sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming
with the clouds of heaven."
Luke 21:27
"they will see [Me] coming in a cloud with power and great glory."

Jesus had taught them and others that he would be coming in a cloud.
How fitting for the angles to cap his earthly ministry with, "just as
you saw him go in a cloud, remember, he will be coming in a cloud very
soon with power and great glory."

FURTHER considerations...
John knew Jesus would come back in a cloud: "Behold, He is coming with
clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him." How
fitting it is for the angels to have meant Jesus will come in a cloud, just
as John saw him go.

AND in the Revelation of Jesus Christ, He once again reiterates that
He "will so come in like manner as [the disciples] saw Him go into
heaven" i.e. " in a cloud".

Revelation 14:15-16
Then I looked, and behold, a white CLOUD, and on the cloud sat One
like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His
hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple,
crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the CLOUD, "Thrust in Your
sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the
harvest of the earth is ripe." 16 So He who sat on the CLOUD thrust in
His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

THUS, I FIND IT ACCEPTABLE TO ACCEPT THE ANGLES WERE SIMPLY SAYING:
"Just as Jesus went to heaven with a CLOUD, Jesus will come back with
a CLOUD."
AND I CAN ACCEPT THAT THE ANGLES WHERE NOT REFERRING TO THE PHYSICAL,
BODILY, VISIBLE ASPECT OF JESUS' ASCENSION.

You may not feel this is the best argument, but I believe it is an
acceptable argument considering the rest of scripture.

I don't mean to be rude, but I didn't actually detect ANY argument there. All I saw was someone trying to get round what he admits is the obvious (or as he calls it "difficult", "easy") meaning of the text.

Ely wrote:I don't mean to be rude, but I didn't actually detect ANY argument there. All I saw was someone trying to get round what he admits is the obvious (or as he calls it "difficult", "easy") meaning of the text.

That's ok Ely...you Britts are allowed to be rude. But only because you guys are so polite about it.

But please, read the post again and reply to the argument. If you read it carefully you will see the argument.

HINT: He is pointing out the significance of the clouds and how there is nothing there that explicitly points out that the return will be physically, bodily or visibly. Now don't get me wrong. I do believe that he was visibly, bodily and physically there.

Another point though too. To say that "in like manner," means playing the tape backwards has problems too. Passages that say He will return with saints, 144,000 with marks on forehead, angels, fire, rewards, on a horse, with a sword sticking out of His mouth, brass feet, etc., etc., and so on. All things that were not a part of the ascension.

mike