The Epistles

[Paidion]

The Greek word κοσμος (cosmos) does have the basic meaning of orderly arrangement. In the New Testament, the word refers most often to mankind in general and/or the way mankind operates, often "human government". Some translate it in some contexts as "world system".

Most of the times it refers to the orderly arrangement of the Mosaic Law with all its rituals, feasts and sacrifices.

Not in the New Testament. It most often refers to the world of people. I could not find the word at all in the Old Testament septuagint. I did find it in the Apocrypha, and it often did refer to orderly arrangements of women's dressings or to the ornaments which she arranged for beauty.

I see the promise (Rom 4:13) of Abraham and his descendants inheriting "the world" as reference to their inheritance of the "world system" or government of the world.

2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him:

The true children of Abraham, the disciples of Christ will reign with Christ here on earth when Christ returns

When Christ comes at the last trumpet (the seventh trumpet) we find that

The kingdom of the cosmos has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign for ages and ages. Revelation 11:15

Does this not indicate a transfer of power from human government to divine government. And does that rule not continue right here on earth for a thousand years?

For Jesus said:

Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. Matthew 5:5

Notice that this promise indicates the inheritance of the earth. The Greek noun "γη" from which we get "geology", refers to a physical place. It does not always refer to the whole earth, sometimes "the inhabited earth" or sometimes ever a particular land or country, but always to a physical region.

[Mellontes]

I disagree and BTW, nice deflection, Paidion. Would you please address the coming in clouds from my previous post? This is probably one of the most misunderstood aspects of the second appearing of our Lord. It is the main reason people believe it hasn't taken place, because a "physical" Jesus hasn't been seen...

I await your response from Scripture...

Blessings, Ted

[Paidion]

Concerning us; we are told that our bodies will be changed. We are told our bodies will see coruption. But we are never told that our bodies will come out of the grave. Instead we will be like Him in that we will have the kind of body suitable for heaven. Nowhere are we told anymore than that.

It seems that the resurrection power that was flowing at after our Lord's resurrection, caused some people to come out of their graves:

Jesus cried again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit. And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split; the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep [died] were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. Matthew 27:50-53

So when Paul addresses the issue we see that we start out as one kind of flesh and then we die. That flesh must die before the new kind of body can emerge but as to what kind of body that will be we are not told except that it is spiritual.

Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep [die], but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. I Corinthians 15:51-53

[Mellontes]

Paidion, I still await...

[Allyn]

Concerning us; we are told that our bodies will be changed. We are told our bodies will see coruption. But we are never told that our bodies will come out of the grave. Instead we will be like Him in that we will have the kind of body suitable for heaven. Nowhere are we told anymore than that.

It seems that the resurrection power that was flowing at after our Lord's resurrection, caused some people to come out of their graves:

Jesus cried again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit. And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split; the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep [died] were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. Matthew 27:50-53

So when Paul addresses the issue we see that we start out as one kind of flesh and then we die. That flesh must die before the new kind of body can emerge but as to what kind of body that will be we are not told except that it is spiritual.

Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep [die], but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. I Corinthians 15:51-53

So Paidion now believes the general resurrection took place around 33AD? And concerning our being changed, I have never said otherwise. Can you answer, Paidion, what kind of body we shall have and support it with Scripture?

[mikew]

Mike,

I didn't have a problem with what you were saying until you got to this point. I don't think we necessarily have to say that Abraham's inheritance was the "world." In many instances it is referred to as the "promise" that is the inheritance. The promise was first issued from the Jewish "world" of types and shadows - the old covenant.

You said "God flooded the world in order to clean it up ." This paraphrase is in error unless you meant the world as people, but I don't think you did. Especially when you said "it" referring to non-living beings...

2 Peter 2:5 says "And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; "

2 Peter 3:6 - Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

This was not the physical planet that perished (it has been wet before and is still largely wet). It was the people who perished.

Ok. Its okay to say that the world is not the planet. That makes sense -- i have treated "the world" as being all creation but there also is the interesting idea that "in the beginning the earth was formless and void" which also indicates that the earth itself wasn't part of the creation -- it was pre-existing. (This pushes a bit into speculation.)

But anything on the surface of the globe that can be flooded over may be included as "the world" and it would make sense that Abraham was given promise over that through the resurrection

Rom 4:13 specifically said the promise was that we would be heirs of the world (It was the plural pronoun that I appreciated here from Douglas Moo)

There may be verses that say we inherit the promise or promises, but Rom 4:13 is one verse that specifies a promise that we get to enjoy.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that Christ came to save the physical planet? It would seem so because you also added that if He didn't come, the earth would have to be destroyed too. Wow! Was Christ's plan of redemption directed to planets or people? Are planets born in sin and need redeeming or is it people who are born in sin and need redeeming? You can't possibly be thinking like this so I am going to say that I don't understand what you meant here...

This is an area I hadn't discussed before. So I see it reasonable that "the world" is referring more to people and things on the surface (roughly speaking).
I did perceive this more as a similar preservation as done in Noah's flood but I never quite refined my thinking here.

It seems that Rom 4:13 with Matt 5:5 "meek shall inherit the earth/land" that the promise being presented was an inheritance of land. This is my best guess so far with respect to a physical resurrection. If these ideas are right, I still don't know what we will be doing here.

Matthew 15:24 - But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Jesus came into His own. The own are the Jewish people. He came to the world of the Jews. They rejected Him and as a result we [Gentiles] were able to be grafted into the same promise!

I see Matt 15:24 as the purpose of Jesus in His walk on earth --before the death and resurrection. He seemed to come to warn the Israel bloodline of the judgments that were coming upon them. This was something that become apparent even before I had a preteristic perspective.
Romans 9 to 11 shows that the Israel bloodline under the promise (those who became believers, the remnant) were properly saved before the destruction of Jerusalem.

The new heaven and earth is about people just as the old heaven and earth was composed of people (as well as the system).

Old covenant = old Jewish system= people belonging to that system
New covenant = being in Christ = people belonging to Christ

I think it was Steve who helped to show that the old heavens and earth was the Old Covenant worship. And I suppose you could be right in saying it was the Jewish people cause after the destruction there was no bloodline people of God. The promise to Israel was completed.

We may not be on the same topic here though. I can't quite tell.

[Mellontes]

Hey Mike,

We're probably pretty close in our discussions of late...although I am 100% in disagreement with an earthly, "land," terra-firma type of fulfillment. The promises are spiritual realities. People are being added to the kingdom every day. I just can't see how we have inherited the earth, but I can see how we have become heirs of the promise.

I am an heir with Christ right now. He is my king. I have been translated into His kingdom (Col 1:13. We rule and reign with Him now - and I am dwelling upon earth. The Bible says I am meek, but my friends (which I have very few because of my stand on Scripture) would probably say otherwise...

I know dispensationalists would like your choice of verses, but they completely ignore Matthew 21:43...We (Christians) are the nation that brings forth the right kind of fruit (faith) (1 Peter 2:9)

Mike, because of what you said "I have treated "the world" as being all creation but there also is the interesting idea that "in the beginning the earth was formless and void" which also indicates that the earth itself wasn't part of the creation" here is an interesting Scripture. It is quite the challenge. The context is definitely "people"...yet...well see Jeremiah 4:23 yourself. It is not a topic I will be discussing on this forum. I am sure you will know what I mean.

Also, can you do me a favor? Can you you tell Paidion I am still waiting? We answer their requests and questions but us, nahhhhh, we don't deserve responses...

Blessings, Ted

[Mellontes]

Paidion, still waiting...

[Mellontes]

Paidion,

While you are composing your response to my blurb on "coming in clouds," I was wondering whether you would be willing to confirm as accepting in the affirmative the following article from the Westminister Confession of Faith, chapter 32:

The Westminster Confession
Chapter 32 - Of the State of Man After Death, and of the Resurrection of the Dead

1. THE bodies of men, after death, return to dust, and see corruption; but their souls (which neither die nor sleep), having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them. The souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies; and the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day. Besides these two places for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.

Agree fully, or disagree?

Blessings, Ted

[Paidion]

I disagree.

We do not have immortal "souls", that is, some etherial part of us which exists independently of our bodies. That concept has its origin in Greek thought, not in the Bible.

The spirit of life which God breathed into the body which He had created became a living "soul". In other words, the complete man IS a "soul" or "being" as the Hebrew word "Nephesh" seems to mean. In the New Testament, the Greek word translated as "soul" in the AV, usually means "self".

If the "soul" refers to your personality, the "real you" which inhabits a body which is not really part of it, then how did the rich man in Jesus' parable talk to his soul? If the soul was the real person, who did the talking?

‘And I will say to my soul, "Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years; take your ease; eat, drink, and be merry."’ Luke 12:19

However, if you can recognize that "soul" means "self" in the New Testament, you will be able to see that the man was talking to himself.