1948

[Guest]

Hey Paidion, how do you know? Maybe I am glad that he agrees with me.

[Guest]

Hey Paidion, how do you know? Maybe I am glad that he agrees with me.

GOOD ONE ALLYN!

Padion, you mentioned that Jesus has not performed what is stated in 1 John 3 and Hebrews 2 yet. Can you explain this passage:

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.
Joh 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
Joh 12:33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.

Thank you for posting these verses, Sean.

"Now is the judgment of this world." Doubtless our Lord meant that judgment of the world BEGAN at that time. Surely it was not complete then. Is there not a future judgment described in several places in scripture?

"Now will the ruler of this world be cast out." Notice the future tense --- "will be cast out". The "now" is the beginning of it.

"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
When Jesus was lifted up upon the cross ("He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die"), he didn't draw all people to Himself instantaneously. He began to draw all people to Himself. Even now, about 2000 years later, most people have not yet been drawn to Him.
But, all praise to God, it will happen when everyone has been reconciled to God!

For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. Colossians 1:19,20

[Guest]

"Now will the ruler of this world be cast out." Notice the future tense --- "will be cast out". The "now" is the beginning of it.

Interesting. So about where would you put the casting out of the singular ruler? Is he just a little wobbly right now, maybe leaning to one side.

I don't get it. After saying the devil can't be bound because he can't be prowling at the same time, you say that "now the ruler of this world will be cast out" can't mean at the death and resurrection of Jesus. So it must mean a 2,000 year+ casting out. In a way, the 2,000 year casting out of satan on the earth is what an Amillenialist believes, as Steve has alrady gone into detail with. So are you admitting that from the time of Christ ("the beginning of it") the casting out began and continues until the second coming when death is finally defeated (not restricted temporarily)?

It seems that futurist like to make "now" predictions mean "later", rendering them meaningless.

"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
When Jesus was lifted up upon the cross ("He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die"), he didn't draw all people to Himself instantaneously. He began to draw all people to Himself. Even now, about 2000 years later, most people have not yet been drawn to Him.

Interesting since it nowhere says I will "now" draw all men. Or that He would do this instantaneously. So this point is invalid, IMO.

[Guest]

"Now will the ruler of this world be cast out." Notice the future tense --- "will be cast out". The "now" is the beginning of it.

You know Paidion. The more I think about it, the more I wonder if you can at least see the parallel to this statement and the Amil view. Seeing this as the begining, and seeing an end, how is it that we can, in this age, take those who were once walking according the prince of the power of the air and convert them by the gospel if there isn't something that has been done to allow this? I mean, why doesn't satan just destroy the church? It's not because he doesn't try. It seems something of his power is not what it was before Chirst came.

[Guest]

Steve wrote

"The idea that Satan is harming and deceiving the world today as much or more as he was doing prior to the time of Christ is an objection commonly raised to the suggestion that the "binding" of the devil refers to what was accomplished at the first coming of Christ. Though common, the objection is ill-informed. Such an idea can only be sustained by paying no attention to history.

The only place that we might argue that Satan's influence is increasing at the present time would be in our part of the world, over, perhaps the past several decades. It is true that there was a larger percentage of Christians in the populations of America and Europe fifty years ago than is the case now—but what has this to do with the state of the world before and after Christ?

Before Jesus came, every nation on earth was 100% deceived by Satan, worshipping demons, sacrificing children, conducting brutal massacres of their rivals, etc. The only exception in pre-Christian times was the tiny nation of Israel—and even Israel was not an exception through most of Old Testament history.


Speaking of history lets consider a few blips on the radar screen,this isnt even taking into account the war against the unborn.


"The total estimated human loss of life caused by World War II, irrespective of political alignment, was roughly 62 million people. The civilian toll was around 37 million, the military toll nearly 25 million. The Allies lost around 51 million people, and the Axis lost 11 million (note that some Axis countries switched sides and reentered the war on the side of the Allies; those nations are included in the Allied count, regardless of when the deaths occurred. There was a disproportionate loss of life and property; some nations had a higher casualty rate than others, due to a number of factors including military tactics, crimes against humanity, economic preparedness and the level of technology."

Pol Pot was another

"Pol Pot's regime killed between 1.5 to 2.3 million people between 1975-1979. By some accounts, nearly one out of every eight Cambodians was murdered. The regime targeted Buddhist monks, Western educated intellectuals, people who appeared to be intelligent (for example, individuals with glasses), the crippled and lame, and ethnic minorities like ethnic Laotians and Vietnamese."

"With this understood, the Soviet Union appears the greatest megamurderer of all, apparently killing near 61,000,000 people. Stalin himself is responsible for almost 43,000,000 of these. Most of the deaths, perhaps around 39,000,000 are due to lethal forced labor in gulag and transit thereto. Communist China up to 1987, but mainly from 1949 through the cultural revolution, which alone may have seen over 1,000,000 murdered, is the second worst megamurderer"

When we consult the historical record we see more death in these days than during the earlier times of human history,the sheer numbers are staggering. I would have to disagree based on the numbers alone. I would postulate from this more active satanic activity not less.

Crusader

[Guest]

My reference was not to the body count of modern wars Vs. that of ancient, low-tech wars. It is not surprising that massive wars in a world that has over 3 billion people (as was the case in the early 20th century) might end up killing more victims than did wars in a world that contained less than half a billion people (as was the case in pre-Christian times).

War is not the only way in which people are killed, and numbers of people being killed is not the most significant measure of Satan's activity. Everyone dies one way or another, regardless what the devil may do.

In my earlier post, I was referring to the extent of the devil's deception of the world—not the number of human tragedies. Satan's ability to deceive the nations is the only realm in which his binding in Revelation 20 is said to have an impact. I stand by my earlier statements.

[Guest]

When we consult the historical record we see more death in these days than during the earlier times of human history,the sheer numbers are staggering. I would have to disagree based on the numbers alone. I would postulate from this more active satanic activity not less.

Crusader

I don't doubt that there are more numbers of people killed in recent history. That should be no surprise since there are more people living today than ever before.

Or, to put another way, if so many people are being killed and so many abortions are being performed then why are there ~6.5 billion people? Has something occurred to allow such an increase in population? Why with all the deaths that have been the result of war, etc (and continue to occur) does the population continue to rise?

[Guest]

Quoting Sean:

Then the Bible is full of "bad metaphorical language".

Isa 19:1 An oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt; and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.

Did God, who is Spirit, ride water vapor? If people didn't see it, maybe there is still a future fulfilment. How would they confirm if someones heart melted? God must have been there since it mentions His "presence". Was God present? In what way? How could they tell? If God rode a cloud into Egypt it would have been too foggy to see.

Sean, it appears that you have misunderstood my use of the phrase "bad metaphorical language". I was not implying that metaphorical language is intriniscally "bad", but rather that if Peter had believed that Satan was bound in the day that he warned about the devil prowling about like a lion seeking someone to devour, he was using metaphorical language in a "bad" (that is "ineffective") way. So your examples of metaphorical language which cannot reasonably be taken literally are inapplicable to the point.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking some one to devour.

Why would Peter compare a bound Satan to a roaring lion prowling around seeking some one to devour? The simile doesn't make sense if Satan were bound when Peter wrote these words.

Suppose an intruder had broken into your house, and you caught him.
The next day would it make any sense to say to your friends, "The intruder I caught had been prowling around my house like my chained dog outside"?

[Guest]

Quoting Sean:

Then the Bible is full of "bad metaphorical language".

Isa 19:1 An oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt; and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.

Did God, who is Spirit, ride water vapor? If people didn't see it, maybe there is still a future fulfilment. How would they confirm if someones heart melted? God must have been there since it mentions His "presence". Was God present? In what way? How could they tell? If God rode a cloud into Egypt it would have been too foggy to see.

Sean, it appears that you have misunderstood my use of the phrase "bad metaphorical language". I was not implying that metaphorical language is intriniscally "bad", but rather that if Peter had believed that Satan was bound in the day that he warned about the devil prowling about like a lion seeking someone to devour, he was using metaphorical language in a "bad" (that is "ineffective") way. So your examples of metaphorical language which cannot reasonably be taken literally are inapplicable to the point.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking some one to devour.

Why would Peter compare a bound Satan to a roaring lion prowling around seeking some one to devour? The simile doesn't make sense if Satan were bound when Peter wrote these words.

Suppose an intruder had broken into your house, and you caught him.
The next day would it make any sense to say to your friends, "The intruder I caught had been prowling around my house like my chained dog outside"?

I have not spent much time studying this, so if my comments are not helpful please ignore them. However, an example was given earlier in this thread that I thought might help if we considered it with respect to the adversary being bound. When we chain up a dog, it does not keep him from running around or biting children or barking. It just prevents him from getting beyond the boundaries established by the length of the chain.

Perhaps the adversary in this case is restricted from prowling beyond the restrictions imposed by the chain that God has placed on him. Perhaps the adversary is restricted in his attacks on Christians as long as they make use of the armor that God has provided. Perhaps his ability to deceive has been severely restricted by the demonstration of God's love shown to us in Christ's death on the cross.

I do not know which view is correct. But I think this is one possible way of looking at the chaining of satan that allows him to still be opposing God but within new limitations after the cross. I think we all agree that the future holds much more serious limitations on his ability to deceive after he has been thrown into the lake of fire

Mike

[Guest]

Perhaps the adversary in this case is restricted from prowling beyond the restrictions imposed by the chain that God has placed on him. Perhaps the adversary is restricted in his attacks on Christians as long as they make use of the armor that God has provided. Perhaps his ability to deceive has been severely restricted by the demonstration of God's love shown to us in Christ's death on the cross.

If he will be permitted to deceive the nations then by default was'nt the inability to deceive the nations what his restraint was. Apparently his ability to deceive will grow significantly at some point. The question might be ,what nations is the bible referring to?