Other Scriptures
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In the last book of the Old Testament (Malachi), we are told the following
(Mal 4:5) "Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD.
Who is the "you" in this verse. The Jews! Malachi was a prophet to the Jews. Has this Elijah come? Yes
(Mat 11:12) "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force. (Mat 11:13) "For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John[the baptist]. (Mat 11:14) "And if you care to accept it, he himself is Elijah, who was to come.
(Mat 17:12) but I say to you, that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands." (Mat 17:13) Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist.
John came in the "spirit" of Elijah, and according to Jesus himself he is the fulfillment of this prophecy. This is important for two reasons. First, it proves that prophecy can be fulfilled literally, although done spiritually and different than we might think or understand. Second, John came preaching repentance and judgment to the Jews prior to the great and terrible day of the Lord, AD70. This further establishes that the last days and/or the day of the Lord were in that first century time frame, not ours. Malachi was a prophet to the Jews telling of future destruction for their apostasy from God. Four-hundred years later John the Baptist comes on the scene and fulfills this prophecy in the spirit of Elijah and preaches the nearness of this wrath and judgment. This is a prophecy to the Jews, not for any future generation.
The Epistles
Re: The Epistles
Conclusions
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I know that there are more New Testament scriptures and Old Testament prophecies that I could use in this thread. The failure to use them is due primarily to my lack of accessing them in my brain, or my desire to not make this thread lumber along beyond a necessary length. I have, however, used a tremendous amount of scripture to support the Preterist view, and it is my contention that if I were to access more scriptures, and continue to compare them to one another, it would only help to establish further credibility for the Preterist position.
Having used scripture to interpret scripture, and having tried to use credible historical data to substantiate the facts surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem, I believe that when Christ said He would come again in the lifetime of His disciples, and reiterated that fact to them by using the phrase "this generation shall not pass away till all these things be fulfilled" he meant it. Christ is now on his throne, ruling and reigning. For those of us living today, we are living in the kingdom of Christ in a spiritual sense, but also a real sense. We will ultimately go to be with God face to face when we die. We no longer need look for a resurrection to be with God. The resurrection was a promise to Old Testament saints. Now, when people die, they are judged and immediately ushered into the presence of God, or for unbelievers, into the lake of fire. There is no more waiting in Sheol.
This is my position, and it is supported by the clear and plain meaning of scripture as spoken first by God the Father, Christ the son, and reiterated and believed by all of the New Testament authors as moved by the Spirit. I don't need crazy dispensational time charts to try and twist the words soon, quickly, and near to mean 2000+ years. Out of prejudice, I don't need to split the Olivet Discourse and make it point to two different time periods when no such split exists. God is not the author of confusion.
I know that most people will throw up their hands and disagree with me completely. My position certainly goes against the eschatological paradigm of most Christians today. Before I'm told I'm wrong, and I know this will be redundant, but this alone would I like to know. What event did Christ point to that made the disciples ask the question, "When shall all these things be?" It was the destruction of the temple. He then told them of all the events that would precede and/or accompany the destruction of the temple, and that it would occur in the lifetime of that first century generation. Was the temple destroyed in their lifetime? Yes! Christ linked all of the events in the Olivet Discourse to that destruction. Therefore the question should not be, "Allyn, look around you, how can you possibly believe all of those end time prophecies have been fulfilled?" I just point to scripture and say, "Well, that's exactly what Christ said, and I believe it". When a person is confronted with the fact that the temple was destroyed in the prophesied time frame, and that Christ linked his second coming to the destruction of the temple, the real question should be, "How can you not believe it happened?"
As mentioned before, the burden of proof is not on me, for I stand on scripture, historical facts, and the plain meaning of words. The burden of proof is on the person who does not believe all these things have happened. To prove that they have not happened would require re-writing history, and denying the words of Christ. Is it possible to prove, using scripture alone, that he didn't come again? The only way this is possible is to change the meaning of words, and completely leave out audience relevance.
It does not matter if this view is contrary to creeds, or church doctrinal statements. All that matters is scripture. The second we put our feelings, creeds, church tradition, or other men as our guide for what we are to believe about scripture we are saying that we, or they, are more trustworthy than God himself.
The good news of Preterism is that I look towards tomorrow not with pessimism, but with celebration that all things are working out just as God and Christ have planned. Yes, the world is difficult, but in Christ we have what we lost in Adam. That is, a relationship with God. It isn't the physical world or the Garden of Eden we lost. It was fellowship with God that was lost. Stop looking for the physical. This world truly is not a Christian's home, and I'm not looking for a physical kingdom. I want to work for him while I'm here and then ultimately go and be in the presence of God forever. Preterism offers hope because the promises of God are "realized", and that should give us confidence in all of his promises. That should give us reason to praise God.
I once had a pastor tell me he would not believe Preterism because if all things are fulfilled that meant his faith was "static" and there was nothing really worth working for today. Oh, really? The cross is 2000+ behind us, but does that make the work of the cross "static"? Hardly! To the Christian the cross is our hope and confidence that we have been reconciled to God. Let us take confidence in the realized second coming of Christ, just as we take confidence in his first coming and death on the cross. By being in Christ we are in his kingdom now, so let us start living like it, and go out and bring others into it.
It is encouraging to see Preterism grow exponentially on the Internet and elsewhere. It is no longer a novelty. It is either hated or loved, but either way it is growing. God is opening the eyes of people and helping them to see the foolishness of all the "Left Behind" sci-fi books, and turning them to the plain and simple meaning of scripture. My hope is that it will spread like a wildfire as people are forced to deal with the clear time statements of Christ and the Apostles concerning the events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem.
I have studied these scriptures in depth for myself. I know what I believe, and more importantly, I can defend what I believe. I stand on the objective word of God for my conclusions.
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I know that there are more New Testament scriptures and Old Testament prophecies that I could use in this thread. The failure to use them is due primarily to my lack of accessing them in my brain, or my desire to not make this thread lumber along beyond a necessary length. I have, however, used a tremendous amount of scripture to support the Preterist view, and it is my contention that if I were to access more scriptures, and continue to compare them to one another, it would only help to establish further credibility for the Preterist position.
Having used scripture to interpret scripture, and having tried to use credible historical data to substantiate the facts surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem, I believe that when Christ said He would come again in the lifetime of His disciples, and reiterated that fact to them by using the phrase "this generation shall not pass away till all these things be fulfilled" he meant it. Christ is now on his throne, ruling and reigning. For those of us living today, we are living in the kingdom of Christ in a spiritual sense, but also a real sense. We will ultimately go to be with God face to face when we die. We no longer need look for a resurrection to be with God. The resurrection was a promise to Old Testament saints. Now, when people die, they are judged and immediately ushered into the presence of God, or for unbelievers, into the lake of fire. There is no more waiting in Sheol.
This is my position, and it is supported by the clear and plain meaning of scripture as spoken first by God the Father, Christ the son, and reiterated and believed by all of the New Testament authors as moved by the Spirit. I don't need crazy dispensational time charts to try and twist the words soon, quickly, and near to mean 2000+ years. Out of prejudice, I don't need to split the Olivet Discourse and make it point to two different time periods when no such split exists. God is not the author of confusion.
I know that most people will throw up their hands and disagree with me completely. My position certainly goes against the eschatological paradigm of most Christians today. Before I'm told I'm wrong, and I know this will be redundant, but this alone would I like to know. What event did Christ point to that made the disciples ask the question, "When shall all these things be?" It was the destruction of the temple. He then told them of all the events that would precede and/or accompany the destruction of the temple, and that it would occur in the lifetime of that first century generation. Was the temple destroyed in their lifetime? Yes! Christ linked all of the events in the Olivet Discourse to that destruction. Therefore the question should not be, "Allyn, look around you, how can you possibly believe all of those end time prophecies have been fulfilled?" I just point to scripture and say, "Well, that's exactly what Christ said, and I believe it". When a person is confronted with the fact that the temple was destroyed in the prophesied time frame, and that Christ linked his second coming to the destruction of the temple, the real question should be, "How can you not believe it happened?"
As mentioned before, the burden of proof is not on me, for I stand on scripture, historical facts, and the plain meaning of words. The burden of proof is on the person who does not believe all these things have happened. To prove that they have not happened would require re-writing history, and denying the words of Christ. Is it possible to prove, using scripture alone, that he didn't come again? The only way this is possible is to change the meaning of words, and completely leave out audience relevance.
It does not matter if this view is contrary to creeds, or church doctrinal statements. All that matters is scripture. The second we put our feelings, creeds, church tradition, or other men as our guide for what we are to believe about scripture we are saying that we, or they, are more trustworthy than God himself.
The good news of Preterism is that I look towards tomorrow not with pessimism, but with celebration that all things are working out just as God and Christ have planned. Yes, the world is difficult, but in Christ we have what we lost in Adam. That is, a relationship with God. It isn't the physical world or the Garden of Eden we lost. It was fellowship with God that was lost. Stop looking for the physical. This world truly is not a Christian's home, and I'm not looking for a physical kingdom. I want to work for him while I'm here and then ultimately go and be in the presence of God forever. Preterism offers hope because the promises of God are "realized", and that should give us confidence in all of his promises. That should give us reason to praise God.
I once had a pastor tell me he would not believe Preterism because if all things are fulfilled that meant his faith was "static" and there was nothing really worth working for today. Oh, really? The cross is 2000+ behind us, but does that make the work of the cross "static"? Hardly! To the Christian the cross is our hope and confidence that we have been reconciled to God. Let us take confidence in the realized second coming of Christ, just as we take confidence in his first coming and death on the cross. By being in Christ we are in his kingdom now, so let us start living like it, and go out and bring others into it.
It is encouraging to see Preterism grow exponentially on the Internet and elsewhere. It is no longer a novelty. It is either hated or loved, but either way it is growing. God is opening the eyes of people and helping them to see the foolishness of all the "Left Behind" sci-fi books, and turning them to the plain and simple meaning of scripture. My hope is that it will spread like a wildfire as people are forced to deal with the clear time statements of Christ and the Apostles concerning the events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem.
I have studied these scriptures in depth for myself. I know what I believe, and more importantly, I can defend what I believe. I stand on the objective word of God for my conclusions.
Re: The Epistles
allyn- if you have addressed the verse listed below elsewhere, i apologize- but for continuity sake and to keep it all in this thread can you do so again? Thx!
TK
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.” Rev 21:4
TK
Re: The Epistles
That is mighty high enthusiasm. But I see at least two likely flaws in your understanding, which is common among Christians anyhow so how can anyone be condemned?Allyn wrote: It is encouraging to see Preterism grow exponentially on the Internet and elsewhere. It is no longer a novelty. It is either hated or loved, but either way it is growing. God is opening the eyes of people and helping them to see the foolishness of all the "Left Behind" sci-fi books, and turning them to the plain and simple meaning of scripture. My hope is that it will spread like a wildfire as people are forced to deal with the clear time statements of Christ and the Apostles concerning the events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem.
I have studied these scriptures in depth for myself. I know what I believe, and more importantly, I can defend what I believe. I stand on the objective word of God for my conclusions.
It always is a warning when someone is saying that they have stood on the objective word of God. The goal is right but the assumed achievement of that goal is always risky to pronounce. Many who have stood on that assumption have been wrong.
The first flaw seems to be how you throw in the mention of "kingdom of God" as if there was a clear understanding among Christians about the meaning of such phrase. I have not found any writing on the kingdom that even started with the Old Testament to show the basic meaning (or some have gone back too far -- to verses that don't purport to talk about the kingdom of God).
The second flaw is in the understanding of resurrection within scripture or rather we should speak of this misunderstanding of scripture. It seems that Jesus used the idea of resurrection in more than just one simple meaning. It is the confusion of meaning that causes a significant problem leading to full preterism.
My concern regarding full preterists always has been with regard to the tendency of people to jump with full blown confidence into full preterism and not having any reservations as to the completeness of this new system of thought.
Please visit my youtube channel -- http://youtube.com/@thebibledialogues
Also visit parablesofthemysteries.com
Re: The Epistles
TK,TK wrote:allyn- if you have addressed the verse listed below elsewhere, i apologize- but for continuity sake and to keep it all in this thread can you do so again? Thx!
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.” Rev 21:4
TK
Can you answer these few questions?
1. Is the tabernacle of God with man now?
2. Does He dwell with us now?
3. Are we (Christians) His people now?
4. Is God with us now?
5. Is God our God now?
Blessings, Ted
Re: The Epistles
Try Daniel 2 then if you have never found anything.mikew wrote:That is mighty high enthusiasm. But I see at least two likely flaws in your understanding, which is common among Christians anyhow so how can anyone be condemned?Allyn wrote: It is encouraging to see Preterism grow exponentially on the Internet and elsewhere. It is no longer a novelty. It is either hated or loved, but either way it is growing. God is opening the eyes of people and helping them to see the foolishness of all the "Left Behind" sci-fi books, and turning them to the plain and simple meaning of scripture. My hope is that it will spread like a wildfire as people are forced to deal with the clear time statements of Christ and the Apostles concerning the events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem.
I have studied these scriptures in depth for myself. I know what I believe, and more importantly, I can defend what I believe. I stand on the objective word of God for my conclusions.
It always is a warning when someone is saying that they have stood on the objective word of God. The goal is right but the assumed achievement of that goal is always risky to pronounce. Many who have stood on that assumption have been wrong.
The first flaw seems to be how you throw in the mention of "kingdom of God" as if there was a clear understanding among Christians about the meaning of such phrase. I have not found any writing on the kingdom that even started with the Old Testament to show the basic meaning (or some have gone back too far -- to verses that don't purport to talk about the kingdom of God).
Preterists understand that our resurrection indicated by Scripture is a Spiritual act in that the body of a believer does not come up out of the grave or reassemble from scattered molecules or walk around headless or armless or whatever. It is like Christ in that we are raised in Him. There is no place I know of where the Bible teaches that our physical body is raised. There is every indication that we believers are with Christ upon our death.The second flaw is in the understanding of resurrection within scripture or rather we should speak of this misunderstanding of scripture. It seems that Jesus used the idea of resurrection in more than just one simple meaning. It is the confusion of meaning that causes a significant problem leading to full preterism.
Hardly a new system of thought. Since the inspired NT writers taught it as a 1st century event then I suppose they to would have been full preterists if they were around today.My concern regarding full preterists always has been with regard to the tendency of people to jump with full blown confidence into full preterism and not having any reservations as to the completeness of this new system of thought.
methinks we are wrong in your sight and that has little relevence to me, but thanks for the comments.
Re: The Epistles
Ted-
i would answer "yes" to your questions, if in #1 you mean that the "temple" is the "church".
TK
i would answer "yes" to your questions, if in #1 you mean that the "temple" is the "church".
TK
Re: The Epistles
TK, I see no relevance whatever in the questions Ted raised, to the problem you posed. It seems to me that his questions were diversionary.
In no way has Ted has not shown that the promises for the end times given in the verse below, have come to pass in 70 A.D. or any time prior to the current moment. DEATH SORROW, AND PAIN ARE STILL WITH US AS THEY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AND ALWAYS WILL BE UNTIL THAT FUTURE DAY WHEN THE DWELLING OF GOD IS WITH MEN!!! Rev 21:3
In no way has Ted has not shown that the promises for the end times given in the verse below, have come to pass in 70 A.D. or any time prior to the current moment. DEATH SORROW, AND PAIN ARE STILL WITH US AS THEY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AND ALWAYS WILL BE UNTIL THAT FUTURE DAY WHEN THE DWELLING OF GOD IS WITH MEN!!! Rev 21:3
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.” Rev 21:4
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: The Epistles
TK,TK wrote:Ted-
i would answer "yes" to your questions, if in #1 you mean that the "temple" is the "church".
TK
My answer to those questions is a "yes" also. You have successfully analzed the context of Revelation 21:4 in your "yes" answers. See Revelation 21:3.
Revelation 21:3 - And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Revelation 21:4 - And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 - And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Please notice that "the former things are passed away" is very similar to that of 2 Corinthians 5:17's "old things are passed away."
Also, Revelation 21:5's "Behold, I make all things new" is very similar to that of 2 Corinthians 5:17's "behold, all things are become new".
2 Corinthians 5:17 - Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
This speaks of the new covenant relationship IN CHRIST as a new creature (creation - Strong's 2937, ktisis). Most translations render it as a "new creation."
It is the new covenant versus the old covenant temple worship, the new Jerusalem versus the old Jerusalem, the age to come versus the present age and the new heavens and earth (new creation in Christ) versus the old heavens and earth (Judaism).
The whole idea of the tears, pain, sorrow and crying is pointing to the work and toil of the old covenant proceedings.
If referring to heaven (as many believe) wouldn't it be obvious that there are no tears in heaven for two reasons: 1) nothing to cry about, and 2) no tear ducts (these are physical characteristics)
. Wouldn't it also be obvious there is no death in heaven? Besides, it is not speaking of physical death in the first place. It is spiritual death, separation from God (original sin) that is in focus. Since this applies to the new heavens and earth (the new covenant in Christ - remember all those "yes" answers), it is spiritual death that is conquered by being in Christ. This is the death that is swallowed up in victory (Isaiah 25:8, 1 Corinthians 15:54). It was a promise to Israel. We (Christians) are the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16). We are Jews inwardly (Romans 2:29).Blessings, Ted
Re: The Epistles
Ted-
i agree there are no tears in heaven- but you said that Rev 21:4 has already been fulfilled. perhaps i misunderstand what you are saying.
you wrote:
TK
i agree there are no tears in heaven- but you said that Rev 21:4 has already been fulfilled. perhaps i misunderstand what you are saying.
you wrote:
you seem to be suggesting that we will not have physical resurrection bodies, like the Lord Jesus had. I will never, never agree with this proposition, preterism or not.If referring to heaven (as many believe) wouldn't it be obvious that there are no tears in heaven for two reasons: 1) nothing to cry about, and 2) no tear ducts (these are physical characteristics)
TK