Crusader,
Can you explain these two passages with referrence to satan's binding.
Heb 2:14-15 Since then the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise partook of the same; that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death (that is, the Devil), and deliver those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
1 John 3:8 The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
It seems that your interpretation of binding is that satan can do nothing at all. This is not what satan's binding is said to be or mean (Revelation 20:3). The Gospel going forth throughout the world casts light into a dark world and converts the lost and satan cannot stop the spread of the gospel from fulfilling God's purpose.
When Jesus said He bound the strong man (Matt 12:29, Luke 11:21-22), he was speaking of a man He had cast a demon out of. Yet, there were still demons thoughout Israel. He didn't bind all of them. It's one at a time it seems. But they were powerless to resist the kingdom of God. He gave this power to His disciples to do this.
Luke 10:19 Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you.
1948
Last edited by W3C [Linkcheck] on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)
I'm not answering for Crusader. Indeed, some of the things he says don't make sense to me. I do not understand why he seems to dismiss out of hand those who hold a different point of view. And I do not understand why he thinks the idea of Satan being bound implies that he is not "real".
However, I do have the same basic problem with the concept of Satan now being bound. That which is bound, (including your dog, Matt) is clearly restricted from activity. A tied dog does not have the freedom to bite people. A bound Satan seems to imply that he does not have the freedom to hurt people and to get them under his power.
Clearly, the world is evil, and in many ways becoming increasingly evil.
If Satan has a hand in this, then he is clearly not bound.
If Satan is bound, when was he bound? Was he bound after Jesus died and was raised? If so, in what way is the world less deceived and influenced by Satan after Christ's resurrection than they were before He died? All our observation of today's world would suggest that it's people are even more deceived and influenced by Satan's wiles than they ever were!
I think Crusader made at least one valid point:
Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
If Satan has been bound since the death and/or resurrection of Christ, why would we need an armour to withstand him? Would he not be chained and therefore unable to harm us? We need an armour against those who are capable of attack.
However, I do have the same basic problem with the concept of Satan now being bound. That which is bound, (including your dog, Matt) is clearly restricted from activity. A tied dog does not have the freedom to bite people. A bound Satan seems to imply that he does not have the freedom to hurt people and to get them under his power.
Clearly, the world is evil, and in many ways becoming increasingly evil.
If Satan has a hand in this, then he is clearly not bound.
If Satan is bound, when was he bound? Was he bound after Jesus died and was raised? If so, in what way is the world less deceived and influenced by Satan after Christ's resurrection than they were before He died? All our observation of today's world would suggest that it's people are even more deceived and influenced by Satan's wiles than they ever were!
I think Crusader made at least one valid point:
Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
If Satan has been bound since the death and/or resurrection of Christ, why would we need an armour to withstand him? Would he not be chained and therefore unable to harm us? We need an armour against those who are capable of attack.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
The armour does not have its power because we wear it. It in itself is the power that all believers should wear. Therefore if one is in Christ and is striving to live as Christ did, then what power does Satan have over that person.? The Bible teaches us that there is no temptation that comes to man that is not common to man. We are also told that we have a way by which we may resist the devil. To me that is pretty powerful binding and if Satan cannot reach into the very depths of my heart because I belong to Christ then He is bound and restrained by that power (the full armour of Christ).
On the otherhand Satan is seemingly free to bring his evil nature upon the whole world (world being those outside of Christ). We all come to the saving power of Christ by the bidding of the Holy Spirit. Once we acknowledge this and become saved by the Blood of Christ, we are then a part of the body protected from the rampant movements of the devil. If we cross a line that is against God's will, then of course we have re-entered, for a time, the domain of Satan.
On the otherhand Satan is seemingly free to bring his evil nature upon the whole world (world being those outside of Christ). We all come to the saving power of Christ by the bidding of the Holy Spirit. Once we acknowledge this and become saved by the Blood of Christ, we are then a part of the body protected from the rampant movements of the devil. If we cross a line that is against God's will, then of course we have re-entered, for a time, the domain of Satan.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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The idea that Satan is harming and deceiving the world today as much or more as he was doing prior to the time of Christ is an objection commonly raised to the suggestion that the "binding" of the devil refers to what was accomplished at the first coming of Christ. Though common, the objection is ill-informed. Such an idea can only be sustained by paying no attention to history.
The only place that we might argue that Satan's influence is increasing at the present time would be in our part of the world, over, perhaps the past several decades. It is true that there was a larger percentage of Christians in the populations of America and Europe fifty years ago than is the case now—but what has this to do with the state of the world before and after Christ?
Before Jesus came, every nation on earth was 100% deceived by Satan, worshipping demons, sacrificing children, conducting brutal massacres of their rivals, etc. The only exception in pre-Christian times was the tiny nation of Israel—and even Israel was not an exception through most of Old Testament history.
Jesus did a radical thing to bind Satan's activities, "that he might not deceieve the nations" (Rev.20:3). What Jesus did was to commission His disciples to "go and make disciples of every nation...teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you."
Ever since that day, the gospel—like leaven in a lump of dough, or like a tiny mustard seed growing into a great tree, or like a stone growing into a great mountain to fill the earth—has been advancing into the devil's former domain, and has been making conquests. The Roman Empire was conquered by the gospel (as was reportedly acknowledged by the last pagan emperor, Julian the Apostate—who allegedly cried, before his death, "You have conquered, O Galilean!"). While not all the heathen have yet heard the gospel, yet, every passing day, tens of thousands more of the heathen hear of Christ and become His disciples. Hundreds of new churches are established at some place on earth every single day.
The result, thus far, as been the transformation of the world. There are very few ethic groups that still overtly and officially worship Satan. Human sacrifice—once all but universal practice worldwide—only continues today in secret, underground, satanic cults. Under the influence of Christ's message, nations have become more civilized in general—even when most of the individuals in each nation remain personally unconverted. The power of the gospel has changed the contours of the world around them, even as they personally reject its message.
Wars remain to this day, though there are a greater number of people today than before Jesus came who object to war and are working for peace. This is a direct result of the influence of Christ. Most of the nations of the earth (not yet all) conduct their wars much more humanely than did the Assyrians, the Egyptians, the Babylonians, or any other heathen nation, in pre-Christian times.
Two hundred years ago, slavery was practiced in every nation on earth. Today, the practice is restricted, primarily, to a few Muslim nations that have proven more resistant than most to the gospel. Their day will come. The abolition of slavery in most of the world is a direct result of the influence of Christianity.
I wonder if the lepers in Calcutta would say that the world has gotten worse for them, or if the influence of Mother Teresa and the Missionaries of Charity might be viewed by them as an improvement in the conditions of their land. Abortion and the exposure of unwanted children has also ceased among those who have embraced the gospel in every land—though some of those not yet converted still approve of abortion to this day, the practice is no longer universally tolerated, and even those who still support it are losing ground in the public sentiment. This development is 100% due to Christian sentiments.
If Christ had never come, compassion for strangers (and even enemies), to the degree that such has become institutionionalized in international laws, would be essentially unheard of. The people who suffered loss in the tsunami in Indonesia or the hurricane in New Orleans would have been left without substantial assistance in the world before the coming of Christ.
Even the technological advances that have improved healthcare, public safety, hygiene, transportation and communications have (not coincidentally) first arisen in that part of the world that has adopted the world view of Christianity (not, for example, in Hindu, Buddhist or animistic societies). This is because of the paradigm of reality that the Judeo-Christian revelation alone provides—one which encourages discovery because it views the cosmos as real, rather than as "Maya" (illusion).
The leaven of the gospel has so permeated the world and improved it (as Jesus predicted), that we take for granted the basic humanity that even the majority of unbelievers in Christian lands have adopted as normative. We can hardly imagine the world as it was before Christ.
What has happened in the past fifty years or so in our little corner of the planet—when seen in the perspective of the past 2000 years—represents a mere "blip"—an occasional fluctuation in local public sentiment (what in the stock market might be called a "correction"). Such fluctuations are common. In fact, if one studies the history of revivals, one will find that just prior to every major revival of Christianity, historians describe social conditions as having reached "an all time low" in the regions where revival was about to break out.
In the last 30 years (the time since the last revival), Christian sentiment has waned in the USA and Europe, but during the same period, Christianity has come close to overwhelming South Korea, Latin America, China, and Africa, south of the Sahara. In many of these places, conversions to Christ have been occurring at a rate greater than the rate of population growth—sometimes two-to-four-times the rate of population growth!
I hardly see any evidence that Satan's influence has been increasing worldwide over the past century—and certainly not in the past 2000 years. If a pagan from any nation in pre-Christian times could be magically transported to just about any modern nation, the thing that would immediately strike him would be the extent to which the darkness to which he was accustomed was gone, and the ethics of this man Jesus of Nazareth seem to have transformed the planet.
No amillennialist believes that the imagery of Satan being bound refers to an absolute incapacitation of the devil. There will always be some individuals over whom Satan holds sway because of their rejection of truth. The writer of Hebrews knew well enough what the devil does, when he wrote that Jesus, through death, had reduced Satan to inactivity (Heb.2:14 Gr.). John knew this also, when he wrote that Jesus had come to "destroy the works of the devil" (1 John 3:8). Paul was aware of the devil's activities when he wrote that, through the cross, Christ had "disarmed principalities and powers and made a show of them, triumphing over them" (Col.2:15). Jesus was not naive about Satan, when He said that He had "bound" the strong man (Matt.12:29), and had taken away his "armor" (Luke 11:22).
Likewise, John was aware of the devil's continuing mischief when, in the impressionistic imagery of his vision, he spoke of a "dragon" being "bound with a great chain" and confined in a "bottomless pit." John's language is only more striking—but not more radical in meaning—than the many similar statements made by the other authors.
If these biblical writers (while being fully aware of the devil's ongoing activities) could nonetheless speak of Satan as being "bound," "disarmed," "reduced to inactivity," "destroyed," etc., why is it more objectionable for an amillennialist to say exactly these same things?
I think the objection, claiming that the devil is as successful in deceiving the world today as he was before Christ came, is extremely naive and provincial in terms of both history and geography. The devil's loss of territory and influence are clearly observable, if we simply look at the facts of history.
The only place that we might argue that Satan's influence is increasing at the present time would be in our part of the world, over, perhaps the past several decades. It is true that there was a larger percentage of Christians in the populations of America and Europe fifty years ago than is the case now—but what has this to do with the state of the world before and after Christ?
Before Jesus came, every nation on earth was 100% deceived by Satan, worshipping demons, sacrificing children, conducting brutal massacres of their rivals, etc. The only exception in pre-Christian times was the tiny nation of Israel—and even Israel was not an exception through most of Old Testament history.
Jesus did a radical thing to bind Satan's activities, "that he might not deceieve the nations" (Rev.20:3). What Jesus did was to commission His disciples to "go and make disciples of every nation...teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you."
Ever since that day, the gospel—like leaven in a lump of dough, or like a tiny mustard seed growing into a great tree, or like a stone growing into a great mountain to fill the earth—has been advancing into the devil's former domain, and has been making conquests. The Roman Empire was conquered by the gospel (as was reportedly acknowledged by the last pagan emperor, Julian the Apostate—who allegedly cried, before his death, "You have conquered, O Galilean!"). While not all the heathen have yet heard the gospel, yet, every passing day, tens of thousands more of the heathen hear of Christ and become His disciples. Hundreds of new churches are established at some place on earth every single day.
The result, thus far, as been the transformation of the world. There are very few ethic groups that still overtly and officially worship Satan. Human sacrifice—once all but universal practice worldwide—only continues today in secret, underground, satanic cults. Under the influence of Christ's message, nations have become more civilized in general—even when most of the individuals in each nation remain personally unconverted. The power of the gospel has changed the contours of the world around them, even as they personally reject its message.
Wars remain to this day, though there are a greater number of people today than before Jesus came who object to war and are working for peace. This is a direct result of the influence of Christ. Most of the nations of the earth (not yet all) conduct their wars much more humanely than did the Assyrians, the Egyptians, the Babylonians, or any other heathen nation, in pre-Christian times.
Two hundred years ago, slavery was practiced in every nation on earth. Today, the practice is restricted, primarily, to a few Muslim nations that have proven more resistant than most to the gospel. Their day will come. The abolition of slavery in most of the world is a direct result of the influence of Christianity.
I wonder if the lepers in Calcutta would say that the world has gotten worse for them, or if the influence of Mother Teresa and the Missionaries of Charity might be viewed by them as an improvement in the conditions of their land. Abortion and the exposure of unwanted children has also ceased among those who have embraced the gospel in every land—though some of those not yet converted still approve of abortion to this day, the practice is no longer universally tolerated, and even those who still support it are losing ground in the public sentiment. This development is 100% due to Christian sentiments.
If Christ had never come, compassion for strangers (and even enemies), to the degree that such has become institutionionalized in international laws, would be essentially unheard of. The people who suffered loss in the tsunami in Indonesia or the hurricane in New Orleans would have been left without substantial assistance in the world before the coming of Christ.
Even the technological advances that have improved healthcare, public safety, hygiene, transportation and communications have (not coincidentally) first arisen in that part of the world that has adopted the world view of Christianity (not, for example, in Hindu, Buddhist or animistic societies). This is because of the paradigm of reality that the Judeo-Christian revelation alone provides—one which encourages discovery because it views the cosmos as real, rather than as "Maya" (illusion).
The leaven of the gospel has so permeated the world and improved it (as Jesus predicted), that we take for granted the basic humanity that even the majority of unbelievers in Christian lands have adopted as normative. We can hardly imagine the world as it was before Christ.
What has happened in the past fifty years or so in our little corner of the planet—when seen in the perspective of the past 2000 years—represents a mere "blip"—an occasional fluctuation in local public sentiment (what in the stock market might be called a "correction"). Such fluctuations are common. In fact, if one studies the history of revivals, one will find that just prior to every major revival of Christianity, historians describe social conditions as having reached "an all time low" in the regions where revival was about to break out.
In the last 30 years (the time since the last revival), Christian sentiment has waned in the USA and Europe, but during the same period, Christianity has come close to overwhelming South Korea, Latin America, China, and Africa, south of the Sahara. In many of these places, conversions to Christ have been occurring at a rate greater than the rate of population growth—sometimes two-to-four-times the rate of population growth!
I hardly see any evidence that Satan's influence has been increasing worldwide over the past century—and certainly not in the past 2000 years. If a pagan from any nation in pre-Christian times could be magically transported to just about any modern nation, the thing that would immediately strike him would be the extent to which the darkness to which he was accustomed was gone, and the ethics of this man Jesus of Nazareth seem to have transformed the planet.
No amillennialist believes that the imagery of Satan being bound refers to an absolute incapacitation of the devil. There will always be some individuals over whom Satan holds sway because of their rejection of truth. The writer of Hebrews knew well enough what the devil does, when he wrote that Jesus, through death, had reduced Satan to inactivity (Heb.2:14 Gr.). John knew this also, when he wrote that Jesus had come to "destroy the works of the devil" (1 John 3:8). Paul was aware of the devil's activities when he wrote that, through the cross, Christ had "disarmed principalities and powers and made a show of them, triumphing over them" (Col.2:15). Jesus was not naive about Satan, when He said that He had "bound" the strong man (Matt.12:29), and had taken away his "armor" (Luke 11:22).
Likewise, John was aware of the devil's continuing mischief when, in the impressionistic imagery of his vision, he spoke of a "dragon" being "bound with a great chain" and confined in a "bottomless pit." John's language is only more striking—but not more radical in meaning—than the many similar statements made by the other authors.
If these biblical writers (while being fully aware of the devil's ongoing activities) could nonetheless speak of Satan as being "bound," "disarmed," "reduced to inactivity," "destroyed," etc., why is it more objectionable for an amillennialist to say exactly these same things?
I think the objection, claiming that the devil is as successful in deceiving the world today as he was before Christ came, is extremely naive and provincial in terms of both history and geography. The devil's loss of territory and influence are clearly observable, if we simply look at the facts of history.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
There's no doubt you are right, Steve, when you say that the gospel of the kingdom of our Lord has had a great impact on mankind. Yet, it is still only in its infant stages. The mustard seed has not yet grown into a large tree.
It would seem that the apostle Peter either didn't regard the devil as having been bound, or else he was inept in using metaphorical language.
1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking some one to devour.
A lion which is bound ----- caged or chained, cannot "prowl around". Nor can it seek someone, or some animal, to devour.
As for the scriptures you quoted, they, like Peter's quote of the prophet Joel, have only partial fulfillment in the immediate. The Holy Spirit was poured out on that special day of Pentecost, but the signs in the sky had not appeared, nor had the "day of the Lord" come. I know what you say, Steve, about the signs in the sky being hugely metaphorical, but I am not convinced. Nor had the "day of the Lord" come. Paul stated in
2 Thessalonians 2:2 that "the day of the Lord" had not yet come even in his day.
The same is the case with Matthew 24. The part about the destruction of Jerusalem took place in or around 70 A.D. but the part regarding the coming of the Lord is yet future.
Now to examine the scriptures to which you referred:
Hebrews 2:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
As I understand it, this passage speaks of the purpose of Christ's death. He has begun, but not yet finished "rendering powerless... the devil"
Satan will be bound at the coming of Christ, and "loosed for a season" at the end of the "thousand years" (whatever that is ---- I take it literally) to deceive the nations once more.
I John 3:8 ... the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
Once again, this passage gives the purpose that the Son of God appeared. It doesn't state that that purpose had been accomplished.
Colossians 2:13-16 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having freed us from all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him. Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day...
I know most commentators state unequivocally that the "rulers and authorities" in this passage are the devil and his angels. I suggest that the reference may be to the rulers and authorities of the Jews. Instead of "the decrees against us", that is the detailed Mosaic laws, Jesus "disarmed" these rulers and "made a public example" of them. How often Jesus exposed the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, in their pretense to follow the laws, but either didn't follow them at all, or else appeared to follow them, but twisted their intent. For example, the Pharisees stated that a person did not have to honour his parents monetarily, if he stated that the money was given to God. The final sentence in the above quote begins with "therefore". This shows that it is linked to the rest. It was the Jews who imposed the festivals, new moons, and Sabbath laws. They even invented the "Sabbath home", which meant that if you set up a special little spot as your "Sabbath home", about a Sabbath day's journey from your home, then you were permitted to travel another Sabbath day's journey from your new "home". But Christ triumphed over those rulers, and established the kingdom teachings in Matthew 5, 6, and 7.
Jesus' illustrations about "binding the strong man" in Matt 12:27, and a strong man having his armour taken away by someone even stronger" are not statements about Jesus having already bound Satan, but are metaphors He used to show that the Pharisees were wrong in accusing Him of casting out demons by the power of Satan, rather than by the power of the Holy Spirit.
It would seem that the apostle Peter either didn't regard the devil as having been bound, or else he was inept in using metaphorical language.
1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking some one to devour.
A lion which is bound ----- caged or chained, cannot "prowl around". Nor can it seek someone, or some animal, to devour.
As for the scriptures you quoted, they, like Peter's quote of the prophet Joel, have only partial fulfillment in the immediate. The Holy Spirit was poured out on that special day of Pentecost, but the signs in the sky had not appeared, nor had the "day of the Lord" come. I know what you say, Steve, about the signs in the sky being hugely metaphorical, but I am not convinced. Nor had the "day of the Lord" come. Paul stated in
2 Thessalonians 2:2 that "the day of the Lord" had not yet come even in his day.
The same is the case with Matthew 24. The part about the destruction of Jerusalem took place in or around 70 A.D. but the part regarding the coming of the Lord is yet future.
Now to examine the scriptures to which you referred:
Hebrews 2:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
As I understand it, this passage speaks of the purpose of Christ's death. He has begun, but not yet finished "rendering powerless... the devil"
Satan will be bound at the coming of Christ, and "loosed for a season" at the end of the "thousand years" (whatever that is ---- I take it literally) to deceive the nations once more.
I John 3:8 ... the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
Once again, this passage gives the purpose that the Son of God appeared. It doesn't state that that purpose had been accomplished.
Colossians 2:13-16 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having freed us from all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him. Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day...
I know most commentators state unequivocally that the "rulers and authorities" in this passage are the devil and his angels. I suggest that the reference may be to the rulers and authorities of the Jews. Instead of "the decrees against us", that is the detailed Mosaic laws, Jesus "disarmed" these rulers and "made a public example" of them. How often Jesus exposed the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, in their pretense to follow the laws, but either didn't follow them at all, or else appeared to follow them, but twisted their intent. For example, the Pharisees stated that a person did not have to honour his parents monetarily, if he stated that the money was given to God. The final sentence in the above quote begins with "therefore". This shows that it is linked to the rest. It was the Jews who imposed the festivals, new moons, and Sabbath laws. They even invented the "Sabbath home", which meant that if you set up a special little spot as your "Sabbath home", about a Sabbath day's journey from your home, then you were permitted to travel another Sabbath day's journey from your new "home". But Christ triumphed over those rulers, and established the kingdom teachings in Matthew 5, 6, and 7.
Jesus' illustrations about "binding the strong man" in Matt 12:27, and a strong man having his armour taken away by someone even stronger" are not statements about Jesus having already bound Satan, but are metaphors He used to show that the Pharisees were wrong in accusing Him of casting out demons by the power of Satan, rather than by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Steve in all his presentations has more then adequately proven the amil system of events. He has shown its constant flow and supportive Scriptures that agree always from one inspired writer to the next. It is always those who pick and chose what to accept who make a completely senseless illustration of their understanding - which I might add is easily debunked. To me it is the difference between the enlightened and those who depend on intellect.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Hi
Padion we agree....
I believe the devil was defeated at the cross and to those who are believers they need not fear him. The key is that through faith we need to appropriate that victory and get saved. The Bible clearly teaches that unbelievers are held captive by him to do his will but when you become a child of God you are transferred into the Kingdom of God. So to set the record straight I believe the devil is real and active . I believe Christians may war against the powers of darkness but they need not fear satan for they have the Jesus as their King and are in His Kingdom. I believe satans final doom is coming and I believe he hasn't been bound yet for 1000 years.
Paul got it...2 Corinthians 4:4
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God
Colossians 1:12-14
Giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you[d] to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light. 13For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14in whom we have redemption,[e] the forgiveness of sins.
Ephesians 1-10
1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
Today we see the exact same thing,we see people getting saved and we see those who are walking according to the ruler of this world and remain in the kingdom of darkness and this kingdom of darkness has a ruler,the devil.Unbeleivers today are subject to this war we are in...and we need to pray when we wittness to them so that they can see the glorious Gospel of Christ. There is an active devil and he hasnt been bound as to be renderd inoperative. Defeated at the cross for those who believe yes and yes again....but done way with and unable to affect his domain this fallen world no,no..no and no again.
2 Timothy 2:21
"22Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will."
Crusader
I believe the devil was defeated at the cross and to those who are believers they need not fear him. The key is that through faith we need to appropriate that victory and get saved. The Bible clearly teaches that unbelievers are held captive by him to do his will but when you become a child of God you are transferred into the Kingdom of God. So to set the record straight I believe the devil is real and active . I believe Christians may war against the powers of darkness but they need not fear satan for they have the Jesus as their King and are in His Kingdom. I believe satans final doom is coming and I believe he hasn't been bound yet for 1000 years.
Paul got it...2 Corinthians 4:4
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God
Colossians 1:12-14
Giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you[d] to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light. 13For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14in whom we have redemption,[e] the forgiveness of sins.
Ephesians 1-10
1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
Today we see the exact same thing,we see people getting saved and we see those who are walking according to the ruler of this world and remain in the kingdom of darkness and this kingdom of darkness has a ruler,the devil.Unbeleivers today are subject to this war we are in...and we need to pray when we wittness to them so that they can see the glorious Gospel of Christ. There is an active devil and he hasnt been bound as to be renderd inoperative. Defeated at the cross for those who believe yes and yes again....but done way with and unable to affect his domain this fallen world no,no..no and no again.
2 Timothy 2:21
"22Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will."
Crusader
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Peace is a fruit of the Spirit..its good for the healing of many people and glorifes the living God when done in His name.
Steve in all his presentations has more then adequately proven the amil system of events.
Having read carefully every one of Steve's posts, I have come to admire his scholarship and his excellent articulation and justification of his beliefs, as well as his humble character. I think he would be the last one to claim that he has "more than adequately proven the amil system of events."
Notwithstanding, I appreciate your zeal as Steve's faithful disciple.
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Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Then the Bible is full of "bad metaphorical language".Paidion wrote: It would seem that the apostle Peter either didn't regard the devil as having been bound, or else he was inept in using metaphorical language.
1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking some one to devour.
A lion which is bound ----- caged or chained, cannot "prowl around". Nor can it seek someone, or some animal, to devour.
Isa 19:1 An oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt; and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.
Did God, who is Spirit, ride water vapor? If people didn't see it, maybe there is still a future fulfilment. How would they confirm if someones heart melted? God must have been there since it mentions His "presence". Was God present? In what way? How could they tell? If God rode a cloud into Egypt it would have been too foggy to see.
Mat 26:64 Jesus said to him, "You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven."
How can the devil be bound and prowl at the same time? How can the Son of Man sit and come at the same time? Did the high priest see this?
Paidion, you mentioned that Jesus has not performed what is stated in 1 John 3 and Hebrews 2 yet. Can you explain this passage:
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.
Joh 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
Joh 12:33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.
It seems to be in context of the death and resurrection. It has been stated that the "ruler of this age/world" etc is the devil. So what does judgement to the world and it's ruler being cast out mean?
Last edited by W3C [Linkcheck] on Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)