"Until the TIMES of the Gentiles shall be fulfilled.&qu

[Guest]

STEVE7150 wrote:
Zech 12.10 "And i will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication, then they will look on Me WHOM THEY PIERCED. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only Son and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. IN THAT DAY there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem.
13.1 "IN THAT DAY a fountain shall be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem ,for sin and uncleaness."
13.6 "And one will say to Him, what are these wounds between your arms?" Then He will answer "Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends."

In that day? In what day? 70AD? Or still to come?


You mean 13:1?

Jesus called salvation, the Holy Spirit a fountain. This was poured out at Pentacost, and still is given out to this day.
I don't think Zech 13.1 stands alone but is related to 12.10 and 13.6 which seems to me to prophecize His second coming to the land of Israel. This sounds like it's directed to the "house of David" and the inhabitants of Jerusalem wheras Pentacost was for the whole world.

[_Sean]

STEVE7150 wrote:
Zech 12.10 "And i will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication, then they will look on Me WHOM THEY PIERCED. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only Son and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. IN THAT DAY there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem.
13.1 "IN THAT DAY a fountain shall be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem ,for sin and uncleaness."
13.6 "And one will say to Him, what are these wounds between your arms?" Then He will answer "Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends."

In that day? In what day? 70AD? Or still to come?


You mean 13:1?

Jesus called salvation, the Holy Spirit a fountain. This was poured out at Pentacost, and still is given out to this day.
I don't think Zech 13.1 stands alone but is related to 12.10 and 13.6 which seems to me to prophecize His second coming to the land of Israel. This sounds like it's directed to the "house of David" and the inhabitants of Jerusalem wheras Pentacost was for the whole world.

Why would Pentacost be for the whole world? There were only Jews at this event.

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Act 2:5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.
Act 2:14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words.
Act 2:15 For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
Act 2:17 "'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;

Is Joel speaking of a different pouring out than Zechariah? It was the "house of David" that the Spirit was poured out on.

Besides, what do you think the house of David is?

Act 2:29 "Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
Act 2:30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne,
Act 2:31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.
Act 2:34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, "'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand,
Act 2:35 until I make your enemies your footstool.'
Act 2:36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."

What has Jesus been raised up over? The house of David? The Church? Are you saying that Jesus is the head over something other than David was (God's people). We Christians are God's house. Again you are thinking as if Jesus is different than the Jewish Messiah. Jesus is the head of the body the Church, which consists of Jew and Gentile.

Peter is saying the promise of the Spirit being poured out was happening right then. Notice verse 36, "Let the house of Israel therefore know". So is the event for Gentiles or to the House of Israel. Is that different then the house of David. The Gentiles were not grafted in until later.

Act 15:14 Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name.
Act 15:15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,
Act 15:16 "'After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it,
Act 15:17 that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things

Is this not the "house of David"? His dynasty?

[_Sean]

I don't think Zech 13.1 stands alone but is related to 12.10 and 13.6 which seems to me to prophecize His second coming to the land of Israel. This sounds like it's directed to the "house of David" and the inhabitants of Jerusalem wheras Pentacost was for the whole world.

Well 13:6 I don't believe is about the second coming, or even about Jesus. Take a look a the parts you didn't quote:

Zec 13:1 "On that day there shall be a fountain opened for the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and uncleanness.
Zec 13:2 "And on that day, declares the LORD of hosts, I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, so that they shall be remembered no more. And also I will remove from the land the prophets and the spirit of uncleanness.
Zec 13:3 And if anyone again prophesies, his father and mother who bore him will say to him, 'You shall not live, for you speak lies in the name of the LORD.' And his father and mother who bore him shall pierce him through when he prophesies.
Zec 13:4 "On that day every prophet will be ashamed of his vision when he prophesies. He will not put on a hairy cloak in order to deceive,
Zec 13:5 but he will say, 'I am no prophet, I am a worker of the soil, for a man sold me in my youth.'
Zec 13:6 And if one asks him, 'What are these wounds on your back?' he will say, 'The wounds I received in the house of my friends.'

Notice the context of verse 6 is, if anyone asks him. Him who? What's the context about? Not about Jesus. The context is about false prophets. It is common for prophets of false God's to cut themselves, leaving them with scars on them. When these false prophets try to claim "I'm not a prophet", people will ask them "were did you get those wounds"? In other words, their will be found liars, because their scars from cutting themselves will be obvious, but being the liars they are they will reply "I got these in the house of my friends", meaning they are trying to convince people they didn't cut themselves.

Besides, Did Jesus get wounded in the house of His friends? Did fellow disiples crucify Jesus?

The context shows this to be about people prophecying falsely.

[Guest]

Sean wrote:

" The Abomination that causes Desolation is Jerusalem being attacked and the temple being destroyed. Just as Luke says, and Jesus warns: Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains "

You make the exact error that caused Paul to write in 2nd Thessalonians 1-12

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[b] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[d] who now restrains will do so until He[e] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Then in Matthew they asked Jesus this...

"Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you.

Notice end of the age....Did the age end in 70 A.D.? Nope!! Did Jesus physically return in 70 A.D. Nope!

Then he linked it to what ? Take a wild guess...

“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[c] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. "

Even Jesus identified His return and the end of the age with Daniel 9 and the abomination of desolation..and He also said dont let ANYONE DECIEVE YOU concerning that day....we simply have the same problem today that Paul and Jesus had back then....I think since Satan couldnt stop Gods plan with the actual event of MESSIAHS death,buriel and ressurection...he simply tries to confuse His return....I think its important to note two things in drawing a conclusion here...the physical return of Jesus hasnt happened yet and the end of the age hasnt happened either...dont give up Sean your close,but Jesus warned against this confusion...and even Paul said...to the Thessalonians..."dont you remember !!!!!! I told you these things"!!!!!!


In His Service

Crusader

[_Sean]

Sean wrote:

" The Abomination that causes Desolation is Jerusalem being attacked and the temple being destroyed. Just as Luke says, and Jesus warns: Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains "

You make the exact error that caused Paul to write in 2nd Thessalonians 1-12

I made an error because I quoted Luke? I guess you think Luke was wrong then when he equated the abomination of desolation with Jerusalem surrounded by armies? So Paul, in your view, is rebuking Luke's Gospel?

Wow. So, Luke is wrong. Paul is wrong in Epesians 2-3 saying the Gentiles are part of Israel and Daniel decreed 70 "weeks" (490 years) but that's wrong also because you say there is a gap in the last week. We have to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Also, Matthew 24 has two parallels:

Mat 24:2 But he answered them, "You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down."
Mat 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?"


The parallels:

Mar 13:2 And Jesus said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down."
Mar 13:3 And as he sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
Mar 13:4 "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are about to be accomplished?"


Luk 21:6 "As for these things that you see, the days will come when there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down."
Luk 21:7 And they asked him, "Teacher, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?"

Remember, these are parallel. Matthew equated the destruction of Jerusalem with Jesus judging Jerusalem. This can be seen by reading the parallels quoted.

This is common prophetic language:
Isa 19:1 An oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt; and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.

Matthew, writing to Jewish readers knows they will understand this, since it's how the OT uses this same language whenever judgement was pronounced on a nation. This time, the judgement is being pronounced on Jerusalem.

Note the context. Jesus says: "As for these things that you see...they will be thrown down".

Tell me, are the temple and buildings that those disciples were at that moment looking at still here? No, where did they go? Jesus explains prophetically what is going to happen to those very stones they were looking at. To say that this is a future temple yet to be built is to ignore context and to import some other temple than the one they were looking at.

They as "when" and "what sign will there be when these things are about to happen?"

When what? Again, the temple and buildings being thrown down. What is the sign that this is about to occur? Jerusalem surrounded by armies. How do I know this? Because right after this (and the Abomination of Desolation passages in Matt and Mark) Jesus said "those who are in Judea flee to the mountains". This is because it's about to be overrun by the Romans armies. This has historically been fulfilled. This isn't a world-wide future tribulation. This is predicted to affect Judea, because they have cruciifed their Messiah and their covenant involving the physical temple has ended.

Context matters. Saying that Luke is wrong and is being rebuked by Paul is amazing to me.

[Guest]

Sean I appreciate all your views and all the time and energy you spent posting. If anything the value of my post will at least give the alternate view point,and in a day and age when the Blessed Hope is being challenged by various views,positions and teachings something can exist here that will offer the other side. We as Christians were told to be waiting for Jesus imminent return. In a day and age where replacement theology is all but ready to throw Israel out of the equation,and kingdom now people are saying we the Church will usher in the coming Kingdom once we take over...could it be that they are incorrect? Has God quit on Israel ? Will they have a role in the last days scenario? What are the times of the gentiles all about? Well I think that was the question of this original post....I think we are still in the times of the Gentiles...the Church age.

[_Sean]

Well, your view is certainly out there. Most radio and TV programs promote it. My concern is that any one view is taught without mention that there are others out there who believe some other view. There should be a balance. Meaning, people should hear the different views and make up their own mind.

[Guest]

Yep unless its one of the essentials we all should be able to agree to disagree,your just as passionate about your views on the subject as I am...Im sure of that. We both are reading the same book. I know that my view is out there all over the place yet I think its quickely being challenged. The funny thing is that when we get to Heaven we arent going to be able to say well I learned it from this teacher or that one....we are going to be accountable for ourselves. Were we Bereans? I really would change any of my views gladly to make them line up with Gods Word. I think any Christian owes that to Gods Word...we are supposed to beleive and adhere to what it teaches. Ive had to throw out ideas that Ive held onto because Ive found they arent there. Anyway I appreciate you typing that up late last night...I know it took a lot of time..and I commend you for the strength with which you adhere to your convictions..I just disagree...as Im sure you do with me.

His Peace shall reign

Crusader

[Guest]

Sean,

Thank you for all of your posts. I would like to keep this thread of conversation on a friendly basis and maintain an attitude of brotherly love.

I disagree with you though that the futurist has "the burden of proof" placed upon them that Paul was talking about a physical temple. Just because you make such a statement doesn't make it so.

Also I would ask you this.....If Paul meant by his statements to the Thessalonian believers that some entity like the papacy was going to rise and exault itself above all that is called God, why didn't he just say so. Why would he play"word games" with those believers. If he was attempting to reassure them as to the coming of the Lord, it seems to me he would have spoke plainly to them and not in some kind of double talk.

Now if what you are saying is true here in that Paul really was talking about "the church" and not a physical temple.....then that would make us have to believe that the Catholic Church with all of its heretical Mary worship is the temple of God and I absolutely refuse to believe that. Since the man of sin is sitting or will sit in "the temple of God" and he is the head of the Catholic church then the Catholic Church must be the temple of God according to your view.

[Guest]

Roger, just curious from your last post, why do you equate the Catholic Church (RCC) with the true Church?

Also there are many such inuendos concerning future events that are not laid out as precisely as we would have them be. So Paul did not necessarily have to be precise nor was he maybe as privey to them as we would like to think he was. I will say however that it was said elsewhere in the NT concerning the coming apostacy, the forbidding of meats and the forbidding of marriage. All seeming able to fit well with the RCC practices.

I disagree with you though that the futurist has "the burden of proof" placed upon them that Paul was talking about a physical temple. Just because you make such a statement doesn't make it so.

Remember Roger, Paul was the one who referred to the church as the temple and not Sean. Therefore it is perfectly right to say that the dispensationalist would have the burden of proof to disagree with Paul and not with Sean.

I do think the tone of this thread has been wonderfully maintained on the level of brotherly love. I have seen much to the contrary on other boards and it is commendable to the participants here that this thread and others have not fed the flames of contention. All praise to God.