The Epistles

[RickC]

Hi RV,

Thanks for your reply.
I anticipated something like it.

For that reason, I deleted my post from here, edited it, and started a new thread:
Why I haven't been "in" on the full-preterist threads here

My new thread is not about debating the relative merits of full-preterism. It's about how we go about determining what is true based from sound biblical exegesis and hermeneutics, which applies to any systematic theology, idea, or belief: {not just full-preterism, partial-preterism, dispensationalism, or any other concept or set of concepts}. Thanks,

[Paidion]

27 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory. 28 "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

The promised full and final redemption would be at the time Jerusalem is surrounded and the temple destroyed.

Allyn, do you really believe that they saw "THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory"? If that many people saw Him coming with power and great glory when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D., wouldn't someone somewhere have written something about it?

A question for all full preterists, if Christ returned in 70 A.D. and all the promises to believers were received at that time, what do you and I have to look forward to? Are there any promises in the Bible for us in the future? Or have all promises already been fulfilled in 70 A.D.? What will happen to you personally? Will you simply die and go to heaven or what?
Or is going to heaven something figurative which was fulfiled in 70 A.D.?

[Allyn]

27 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory. 28 "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

The promised full and final redemption would be at the time Jerusalem is surrounded and the temple destroyed.

Allyn, do you really believe that they saw "THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory"? If that many people saw Him coming with power and great glory when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D., wouldn't someone somewhere have written something about it?

Do you really question God and presume to understand His ways?

A question for all full preterists, if Christ returned in 70 A.D. and all the promises to believers were received at that time, what do you and I have to look forward to? Are there any promises in the Bible for us in the future? Or have all promises already been fulfilled in 70 A.D.? What will happen to you personally? Will you simply die and go to heaven or what?

This is almost laughable if it wasn't so sad - but I will answer, regardless. I look forward to leading a continued quiet life (1 Thessalonians 4:11).
I look forward to sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ at every opportunity (2 Timothy 4:2)(1 Peter 3:15).
I look forward to growing old and then going immediately thereafter to my God and Creator (Deuteronomy 6:2) (Matthew 25:34).
I look forward to seeing how Christ is working NOW in the lives of people through the Holy Spirit. (Romans 1:16)
I look forward to growing in Christ so that I may be more and more Christ-like daily (Romans 5:3-5).

Or is going to heaven something figurative which was fulfiled in 70 A.D.?

If I get there before you do I'll see if I can send you a postcard

[TK]

i was talking to my mom about this (she's an unapologetic futurist) and her question was similar to Paidions- will the earth always be here(until it runs it's natural course?). is there any future "great white throne judgment" or "judgment seat of Christ" judgments; what do you do with the millennium passages that suggest there will be an end to earthly wars, the lion laying down with the lamb; jesus ruling with an iron sceptre, etc.

TK

[Allyn]

i was talking to my mom about this (she's an unapologetic futurist) and her question was similar to Paidions- will the earth always be here(until it runs it's natural course?).

Yes.
Genesis 8:21-22
Psalms 148:4-6
Psalms 78:69
Psalms 119:90
Ecclesiastes 1:4

is there any future "great white throne judgment" or "judgment seat of Christ" judgments;

Yes there was and upon those who were prophecied to receive it

John 11:25-26 (NKJV) Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

what do you do with the millennium passages that suggest there will be an end to earthly wars, the lion laying down with the lamb; jesus ruling with an iron sceptre, etc.

Steve Gregg deals with those quite well in his v by v tapes.

TK

Allyn

[Mellontes]

i was talking to my mom about this (she's an unapologetic futurist) and her question was similar to Paidions- will the earth always be here(until it runs it's natural course?). is there any future "great white throne judgment" or "judgment seat of Christ" judgments; what do you do with the millennium passages that suggest there will be an end to earthly wars, the lion laying down with the lamb; jesus ruling with an iron sceptre, etc.

TK

TK,

I can't seem to get away from here...

BTW, it is the wolf that dwells with the lamb... Anyway, Try this for a study. Look up what Paul says in Romans 15:12 and see if you can determine whether or not the context (read the chapter) deals with the Gentiles receiving the Gospel. You might want to check out Acts 15:7 to see if the Gospel was currently being preached to the Gentiles and if Gentiles were in fact being saved (which I think is a no-brainer).

Then note that Romans 15:12 is a direct quote of Isaiah 11:10. And understanding that the first three words in Isaiah 11:0 say "in that day" go back to Isaiah 11:1 and read through to verse nine just before the passage Paul quoted. You should be able to determine that the language used is just expressive of the new covenant age in Christ, when the Gentiles (unclean) would be grafted in to the true Jews, true Israel (the clean). The NT is very certain that at that time there would be no difference between Jew and Greek (Gentile). I have never been a Jew myself, yet I am a Jew inwardly (Romans 2:29). It is the same thing with Amos 9:11-12 and Acts 15:16-17. It is really hard to believe that the so-called dispensational scholars missed this! All their OT millennial kingdom references just refer to the new covenant age in Christ... This is what happens when the NT is not used to provide additional light on the OT. This is why dispies are so "physically" oriented. Physical return, physical kingdom, physical new Jerusalem, etc. - just like the unbelieving Jews of the NT. Even the disciples tended in this direction until the Resurrection and Pentecost. Going through all those "millennial" passages is going to become a project of mine. I'll just add it to the list.

I would really appreciate it you would verify the study. I would like to hear your thoughts on it...You can PM me if you like...It does get a little frustrating when our questions and requests go ignored all the time. But their questions...heaven help us if we ignore them. You know what I mean. By the way, if I have asked any of you on this forum any question (and I know I have) why don't you be fair and answer them...

Blessings, Mellontes

[Allyn]

The Book of 2nd Peter

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(written 65 AD)

(2nd Peter 3:3-4) 3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."

This is a significant passage that helps us to nail down the time of his coming to 70AD. The reason these mockers were saying, "where is the promise of his coming?" is because they knew that Christ had predicted His second coming in their generation. Now that generation was fast coming to a close and still no second coming. No wonder they mocked believers. It was the 11th hour of that generation and still no return. Their generation was so close to its end that it caused them to mock Christ's prophecy that He would return in that first century generation. For yet a very little while and He came just as He said He would.

(2nd Peter 3:9-13) 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

At a glance, these verses seem to imply the end of physical earth, but is that what they teach? Remember the passages in the Olivet Discourse about the sun and the moon not giving their light and turning to blood? That was apocalyptic writing and is the same as this passage. The heavens and earth spoken of in these passages are physical Israel (the Jewish nation). They were going to be completely obliterated by the Lord on that day. The "elements" spoken of in this verse are the elements of Judaism, not the physical planet earth. We must learn to read scripture from the 1st century perspective. They were real people living in the first century and they wrote from the Jewish apocalyptic style. They were familiar with all the Old Testament apocalyptic literature so this was not anything new for them. Peter's use of the words, "looking for, and hastening the coming of the day of God" is further proof they expected a first century second coming. They were not deceived. They believed Jesus when he said "this generation".

[Allyn]

The Book of Jude

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(written 65 AD)

(Jude 1:17) 17 But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, 18 that they were saying to you, "In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts."

(Jude 1:21) 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.

[TK]

mellontes wrote:

I would really appreciate it you would verify the study. I would like to hear your thoughts on it...You can PM me if you like...It does get a little frustrating when our questions and requests go ignored all the time.

thanks for the invitation, but quite honestly, this topic isnt THAT interesting to me. I mean, eschatology does interest me, to some degree, but not to the point of doing a lot of study of greek words and every possible verse etc etc. others on this forum are much more interested in that sort of thing. i am a little surprised that not more of them have jumped in here to "help out." perhaps everyone here (except paidion and rick c) is a full preterist. who knows.

and, quite honestly, it really doesnt make that much of a difference to me. I mean, if the angel Gabriel woke me up tonite and said, Hey, Todd, you know Allyn and Mellontes got it right- the rapure already happened and there isnt going to be another one, and no, Jesus isnt coming back to the earth, and no, there wont be a literal new creation. so deal with it." -- i wouldnt be heartbroken.

I'd still go about my daily life, trying to live as a disciple should. i'd still go to church, still read my bible, still teach my bible study class, etc etc. i mean i wouldnt melt like the wicked witch of the west and cry "how can i go on- Jesus isnt coming again!" if that's the way it really is, then that is the way it is. I really dont have much interest in proving you guys wrong- gee whiz you could be right. you've answered some (but not all) of the questions i have about preterism.

so, i will continue to read allyn's posts and your posts and ask questions as they come up, but i am not so naive to think that either of you could be swayed back the other way, and why should you be swayed if you are actually correct?

if you want me to say "uncle" then I will (although i am still unconvinced). maybe some day I will be (convinced, that is).

TK

[Mellontes]

mellontes wrote:

I would really appreciate it you would verify the study. I would like to hear your thoughts on it...You can PM me if you like...It does get a little frustrating when our questions and requests go ignored all the time.

thanks for the invitation, but quite honestly, this topic isnt THAT interesting to me. I mean, eschatology does interest me, to some degree, but not to the point of doing a lot of study of greek words and every possible verse etc etc. others on this forum are much more interested in that sort of thing. i am a little surprised that not more of them have jumped in here to "help out." perhaps everyone here (except paidion and rick c) is a full preterist. who knows.

and, quite honestly, it really doesnt make that much of a difference to me. I mean, if the angel Gabriel woke me up tonite and said, Hey, Todd, you know Allyn and Mellontes got it right- the rapure already happened and there isnt going to be another one, and no, Jesus isnt coming back to the earth, and no, there wont be a literal new creation. so deal with it." -- i wouldnt be heartbroken.

I'd still go about my daily life, trying to live as a disciple should. i'd still go to church, still read my bible, still teach my bible study class, etc etc. i mean i wouldnt melt like the wicked witch of the west and cry "how can i go on- there Jesus isnt coming again!" if that's the way it really is, then that is the way it is. I really dont have much interest in proving you guys wrong- gee whiz you could be right. you've answered some (but not all) of the questions i have about preterism.

so, i will continue to read allyn's posts and your posts and ask questions as they come up, but i am not so naive to think that either of you could be swayed back the other way, and why should you be swayed if you are actually correct?

if you want me to say "uncle" then I will (although i am still unconvinced). maybe some day I will be (convinced, that is).

TK

TK,

What you said is so aptly appropriate. There was no Greek to study in my request. It was simply a matter of reading about 20 verses in order to determine for yourself what you believe the truth is concerning the Scriptures. But like so many in Christianity today they are unwilling (and it is totally a matter of the will) to do the work necessary. This is dispensationalism in a nut shell. People want to be spoon-fed. And if they exist on a steady diet of spoon-fed meals they will stay in that state forever - until they do there own study.

You say you teach the Bible. Well then I admonish you to find out the truth. Do you really want to be passing on error? For crying out loud do the study! If a preacher preaches an out of context message and then attempts to apply it to a believer's life it will be of no value whatsoever. Me, I want value. I want to know God - not what someone else supposedly believes what the Word is...

Mellontes