The Book of Matthew

[Mellontes]

not necessarily. maybe paul had a revelation that Jesus would return shortly, but perhaps God, in his mercy, decided to delay this coming.

TK

I hope you realize this is pure speculation on your part. You realize of course that the revelation Paul did receive is not going to run contrary to God's will. In order to prove your assertion you have to provide a Scriptural precedent for such thinking. If you do find it I would be very interested in seeing the passage for myself. I hope you won't attempt to use Jonah and Nineveh, because the message was basically "Repent or else." It was Jonah who wanted judgment...

And as for God deciding to delay his coming, how would you explain inspiration's usage in Hebrews 10:37 - For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. "Tarry" is Strong's 5549. Here are some other verses that include that Strong's reference:

Mt 24:48 - But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

Luke 12:45 - But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

In Christ's parables the behaviour and characteristics of those servants who believed in a delay is not very flattering. Luke 12 is describing the unbelieving Jews persecution upon the true saints of God.

Take care for now. Is it possible to deal only with the Scriptural record? Quoting unisnspired people is of no value whatsoever. The majority doesn't constitute truth or else we would be Muslim, Hindu or atheists...

[TK]

i was under the impression that Jesus doesnt know when he's coming back.

and CS Lewis is no embarrassment.

it is obvious that you have spent a good amount of time developing your preterist thought, and i suppose that is a good thing. there's not much i can argue, because obviously you have confronted every possible argument.

but regardless of what you say, i still believe Jesus is coming again(in the future). Like the old song says, "may be morning, may be noon, may be evening and maybe soon."

I know my position frustrates you; sorry about that. I just don't believe that I am deceived on this point.

TK

[Mellontes]

i was under the impression that Jesus doesnt know when he's coming back.

and CS Lewis is no embarrassment.

it is obvious that you have spent a good amount of time developing your preterist thought, and i suppose that is a good thing. there's not much i can argue, because obviously you have confronted every possible argument.

but regardless of what you say, i still believe Jesus is coming again(in the future). Like the old song says, "may be morning, may be noon, may be evening and maybe soon."

I know my position frustrates you; sorry about that. I just don't believe that I am deceived on this point.

TK

TK,

Your position does not frustrate me in the least. I was where you are 19 months ago. I asked the same questions you did. I fought it with every breath but there is just too much Scripture proving the 1st century return of the Lord. I finally gave in to His glorious word and set about to discover the NATURE of all the end time events and I haven't looked back since. NO REGRETS...

Jesus only said He did not know the day or the hour. But He did narrow it down to the season.

Matthew 24:32-33 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

And he told the disciples (not us) His coming would be in their generation (Mt 24:34)

James 5:9 used similar phrasing of Jesus' at the doors when he said "Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door." Several years had gone by since Jesus spoke these words. We are much closer to 70 AD at the writing of James' epistle...

Don't forget that the Holy Spirit given at Pentecost from the Father (who knew of Jesus' time of coming) would eliminate all doubt of the timing. And the apostles went about confirming and telling the churches regarding these things. Everyone admits to the NT church believing that the 2nd coming was near to THEM (as does C.S. Lewis), but because of a incorrect NATURE of His coming, the imminence is ignored.

We are just trying to point out from Scripture the nearness of His coming to THEM, not us. If our position is so ludicrous it should be easy to prove us wrong from Scripture. We want to talk about Scripture. Instead we are given quotes by church fathers, Matthew Henry, authors, creeds, non-biblical quotes, etc. ad infinitum, ad nauseum. We want do deal with inspriation. We want to deal with the authority of Scripture and uphold it.

If my position is wrong it is up to every blood-bought Christian to show me from the Scriptures why I am wrong.

Please, please tell me why the author of Hebrews told the 1st century Hebrew Christians that in a very little while He would come and that he would NOT tarry. Does that sound like 1,950 years plus? No it doesn't. Please try to put on your sandals and robe and become a Jew living in the first century who heard those words. Peter said it this way, "the end of all things is at hand (1 Peter 4:7)." Paul told the Corinthians that upon them the the end of the ages would come (1 Corinthians 10:11). Jesus told the Sanhedrin counsel that they would see him come in judgment upon the clouds (Mt 26:64). John in Revelation said these things MUST shortly come to pass (Rev 1:1, 22:6) because the time was at hand (Rev 1:3, 22:10) It goes on and on and on throughout the NT. IT JUST DOESN'T GET ANY PLAINER THAN THIS.

This is all we are trying to say. You MUST lay aside your present theological paradigm if you have any chance to see it. Traditions, even theological ones, make the Word of God of none effect! (Mark 7:13) If you only knew the joy and relief of all that Jesus and the apostles said was so splendiferously true (I know, not a word) you would understand why we are trying so hard to show you. In my 22 years as a futurist I never had a desire to search and study the Word as I do now. I can understand it! Sure there are things I am trying to work out still. I have even written a 300 page book on my journey to fulfilled eschatolgy and the reasons why. I never did anything like that as a futurist! Nor did I ever have the desire. Oh, if I could just let you inside my head for but a moment! Everyone who has come to this decision that all prophecy has been fulfilled perfectly in accordance with the Lord's timing has realized the consequences of such a decision, but the decision just has to be made inorder to stay loyal to God rather than to man. This we have done. Praise God!

I am going to back off now for awhile. If anyone would like to ask me a specific question, please PM me and I would be pleased and honored to try to answer your question with as much Scripture as possible. Thank you for putting up with me in my zeal and passion for the truth. For those who are still seeking, just study the Scriptures and believe them. I pray God will grant you an understanding heart concerning these matters...

Many, many blessings, Ted (Mellontes - derived from Strong's 3195 "mello")

[Paidion]

I wonder why Barnabus, Justin Martyr, and Irenaeus, all mentioned the appearance of the personal Antichrist and/or the second coming of Christ as events future to themselves? It seems that they believed the words of Christ given by revelation to John the Apostle at Patmos that at his second coming "every eye would see Him" Rev 1:7. Why didn't they "believe the Scripture" that He came "soon" and secretly in the first century when no eye had seen Him?

Indeed, is there any evidence that ANY of the second-century writers were not futurists?

[Allyn]

Ted, I want to thank you for the kind and caring way you said what you just posted. When I look back at my progression towards Full-Preterism I have several people I can think of that I should thank for treating me just as you are acting towards TK. I also would have to thank the unsuspecting, such as Steve Gregg, who inspired me to dig and dig concerning the things that were actually foreign to me with regards to these truths. I know Steve calls himself a partial preterist and it was hard for me to understand the reasoning behind that - causing me to dig even more deeply into those things that caused the struggle I was facing.

Just like you Ted, I have never regretted my choice. It has brought me to peace I never felt before - even when before I thought I had peace.

All we can do is present what we know and be confident that Gods Word will not return void.

[Allyn]

I wonder why Barnabus, Justin Martyr, and Irenaeus, all mentioned the appearance of the personal Antichrist and/or the second coming of Christ as events future to themselves? It seems that they believed the words of Christ given by revelation to John the Apostle at Patmos that at his second coming "every eye would see Him" Rev 1:7. Why didn't they "believe the Scripture" that He came "soon" and secretly in the first century when no eye had seen Him?

Indeed, is there any evidence that ANY of the second-century writers were not futurists?

Paidion, is the first book in your library always going to be a book by an ECF?

[Mellontes]

I wonder why Barnabus, Justin Martyr, and Irenaeus, all mentioned the appearance of the personal Antichrist and/or the second coming of Christ as events future to themselves? It seems that they believed the words of Christ given by revelation to John the Apostle at Patmos that at his second coming "every eye would see Him" Rev 1:7. Why didn't they "believe the Scripture" that He came "soon" and secretly in the first century when no eye had seen Him?

Indeed, is there any evidence that ANY of the second-century writers were not futurists?

Paidion,

Here is a quote from Eusebius, Bishop of Caesarea (c. 265 - 340)

Extract from the 'Theophania':

"All authorities concur in the declaration that "when all these things should have been done" "The End" should come: that "the mystery of God should be finished as he had declared to His servants the prophets": it should be completed: time should now be no more: the End of all things (so foretold) should be at hand, and be fully brought to pass: in these days should be fulfilled all that had been spoken of Christ (and of His church) by the prophets: or, in other words, when the gospel should have been preached in all the world for a testimony to all nations, and the power of the Holy People be scattered (abroad), then should the End come, then should all these things be finished. I need now only say, all these things have been done: the old and elementary system passed away with a great noise; all these predicted empires have actually fallen, and the new kingdom, the new heaven and earth, the new Jerusalem---all of which were to descend from God, to be formed by His power, have been realised on earth; all these things have been done in the sight of all the nations; God's holy arm has been made bare in their sight: His judgments have prevailed, and they remain for an everlasting testimony to the whole world. His kingdom has come, as it was foretold it should, and His will has, so far, been done; His purposes have been finished; and, from that day to the extreme end of time, it will be the duty, as indeed it will be the great privilege of the Church, to gather into its bosom the Jew, the Greek, the Scythian, the Barbarian, bond and free; and to do this as the Apostles did in their days--in obedience, faith and hope.' "

Also,

I have been informed there will be a gentlemen speaking tonight (Saturday, September 13, 2008) at 7:30 PM EST on http://www.covenantradio.com. The topic will be concerning the church fathers and preterism. I hope you will be willing to take the time. Surely this is no coincidence.

Also, may I recommend a book by DeMar and Gumerlock "The Early Church and the End of the World"? A very short synopsis is available at: http://www.americanvision.com/index.asp ... rodID=1623.

Blessings, Mellontes

[Mellontes]

For those of you who are genuinely looking for an answer to the following question:

"Is there any evidence that ANY of the second-century writers were not futurists?"

An MP3 is now available for download concerning a discussion by one gentlemen on exactly that subject:

http://covenantradio.hamptonroadsradio. ... Frost).mp3

Blessings, Ted

P.S. - Knowledge is a good thing...

[Allyn]

Thank you, Ted

[psychohmike]

Hey Paidion...What do you do with this post???

by Mellontes on Sat Sep 13, 2008 7:07 am

He called you out Bro. He demonstrated by use of an ECF, that they understood it to all have been fulfilled. And by probably the most prodigious of all of the ECF's.

The ball is in your court buddy! I look forward to a response.

Pmike