1948

[Guest]

Anyone here see it just the opposite?

I got a little distracted by the Dr. Thomas Ice vs. Tommy Ice statement. I googled both and came up with the exact same listings.

To Crusader:

I can tell that you really, really believe your views are correct and the most sensible interpretation of scripture. That's fine, but why don't you answer the questions people here ask you? I was particularly interested in this one from Sean:

One thing I could ask is: What constitutes a Jew?

So, what does make a Jew a Jew? If you are half-Jewish, does it count? A quarter? An eighth? Do you have to live in the State of Israel? What about all the Jews living here in the U.S. Do they have to move to the Middle-east? And what about a Jew who becomes a Christian? Are they in the Church, or not? And...who gets the better deal anyway? Jews or the Church. Maybe Christian Jews get doubles?

See, these are just SOME of the questions that bugged me about Pre-trib/futurist/dispensationalism. But that was all I ever learned. Every time a Sunday school class would have a 13 week series on Revelation, the first week they would say something like,"of course there are OTHER views; they are mistaken. We won't break fellowship with them, but they are really misguided."

So now, finally, I'm learning about some of the other views. I find nothing dangerous about exploring differing viewpoints. It's not as if God is going to take a vote and finish up history the most popular way. What will happen is what He has planned. I have found that I'm a lot less...hmm, how to put it...a lot less anxious? ...concerned? ...fearful? Well, none of those words are the one I want, but my attention is more focused on finding out God's will and doing it and not how soon He's coming back.

By the way, just so you know, it was the Left Behind books that convinced me to find out what other interpretations were out there. You mentioned them before and I thought you might be interested to know that one person, at least, found them very unconvincing.

[Guest]

The question "What is a Jew" was at one time quite relevant when it was being determined who qualified to become a citizen of Israel.

The most interesting definition of a Jew that I have ever heard was given by Golda Maier (How do you spell her last name, anyway?), former prime minister of Israel. Her definition:

Anyone crazy enough to admit he is a Jew, is a Jew.

[Guest]

Anyone crazy enough to admit he is a Jew, is a Jew.

Very true

According to Hitler it was three generations.

[Guest]

I think a God who created the whole universe and holds it all in the palm of his hand knows who is a Jew...ya think!!!

Crusader

[Guest]

I think a God who created the whole universe and holds it all in the palm of his hand knows who is a Jew...ya think!!!

Crusader

Well, yes, and He knows who is German and who is Mexican and who is... whatever...

And I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter (Gal 3:28; Col 3:11), but it seems to matter a lot to you, so I was just curious what YOU thought.

[Guest]

Crusader,
It is obvious to say that God knows who is a "Jew" and who is not.

However, Sean asked that question because his point is (to which I agree) that many verses in the NT speak of the Gentiles joining Israel and that there isn't any longer a distinction or separation to be made between those who are in Christ. Sean has listed many a verse that I won't relist, but a question for you is:

Where in NT Scripture is the distinction maintained between Jew and Gentile?

[Guest]

Hi Crusader ,

You wrote:

"P.S. Its Dr Thomas Ice not Tommy Ice "

I was not aware that this is how he now wishes to be called. In his early writings he simply went by "Tommy Ice." "Dr. Thomas" definitely sounds more distinguished than "Tommy." I suppose Dr. Ice needs as many helps to his credibility as he can get, since he does not earn many points from the quality of his scholarship. Perhaps the name change will help.


In your post above, you say that your reason for participating here is to give some of the arguments for a futurist position, which you say is favored by the evidence.

When are you going to begin? Mostly, you simply quote and re-quote a few verses from Ezekiel 37. This does not translate into an argument for any particular view until you begin to give reasons why this passage should be seen in your way, instead of the way that most Christians have understood it historically.

Perhaps you can give such reasons. If so, you are certainly keeping your cards close to your chest. Are you holding out on presenting any evidence in order to make those of us who disagree over-confident, and then you can use the element of surprise and catch us off-guard by actually jumping into the debate as a debater?

I am still interested in hearing if you have any reasons for taking David literally in Ezekiel 37 (besides the reason you gave, which is that Walter Martin took it that way). Also, why you apply the passage, which only speaks of a time period called "forever," to refer to a thousand-year millennium.

It would be helpful, also, to know how you would answer the question that was put to you earlier, as to what you call a "Jew." You said that God ought to know who is a Jew. Does this answer imply that ONLY God knows? If so, then how might we know if any Jews have migrated back to Israel, and how many of those people who call themselves Jews really ought to make the journey? If God alone knows what a Jew is, then we can't really point to any modern-day phenomenon as involving "Jews" (a humanly-undefinable category), can we?

Yet you tell us that prophecies about the Jews are being fulfilled and reported in the newspapers "every day." Let's just deal with this one claim. Who are you calling Jews—and why do you define them as such?

I, for one, am ready for you to start presenting the arguments that you announced you are here to give us. I hope you aren't teasing us with false promises.

Blessings!

[Guest]

Amos 9: 9-15

 9 "For I will give the command,
       and I will shake the house of Israel
       among all the nations
       as grain is shaken in a sieve,
       and not a pebble will reach the ground.

 10 All the sinners among my people
       will die by the sword,
       all those who say,
       'Disaster will not overtake or meet us.'

Israel's Restoration
 11 "In that day I will restore
       David's fallen tent.
       I will repair its broken places,
       restore its ruins,
       and build it as it used to be,

 12 so that they may possess the remnant of Edom
       and all the nations that bear my name, [f] "
       declares the LORD, who will do these things.

 13 "The days are coming," declares the LORD,
       "when the reaper will be overtaken by the plowman
       and the planter by the one treading grapes.
       New wine will drip from the mountains
       and flow from all the hills.

 14 I will bring back my exiled [g] people Israel;
       they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
       They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
       they will make gardens and eat their fruit.

 15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
       never again to be uprooted
       from the land I have given them,"
       says the LORD your God

When you read verse 15 you read the person who will plant Israel in their own land. Its isnt the United States and isnt Hal Lindsey or David Hunt....why its not even Crusader...Its God. Now all this concern about who is a Jew is actually funny. God did it and He knows who is a Jew. Secondly, God said what ?....they will never ever again be uprooted. Now one must ask themselves the next logical question...How long is " never again " be uprooted from the land God has given them. If your choice is anything other than never ever ever ever ever again as in permanent...then you may be not really reading this verse. 1948 is a fulfillment of divine prophecy and it stands as a huge problem for those who hold to replacement theology. Frankly there just isnt enough hyperbolic wiggle room to deviate from these staggering words spoken by Amos. It even gets more difficult for those holding to replacement theology because there is a plethora of verses supporting this premise and I will list them below for your enjoyment,although I have previously listed them .

Amos 9:14-15, Deuteronomy 4:25-30, Deuteronomy 30:3-5, Ezekiel 20:34, Ezekiel 34:13, Ezekiel 36:24, Genesis 28:10-15, Isaiah 27:12-13, Isaiah 43:5-6, Jeremiah 23:3-6, Jeremiah 32:36-37, Jeremiah 32:37-41, Zechariah 8:7-8.

Marantha

Crusader

[Guest]

Not that you'll receive this. Or understand it. Or acknowledge it. Or respond to it. But here it is.

Acts 15:14-19. "Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written: 'After this I will return And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, And I will set it up; So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, Says the Lord who does all these things.' "Known to God from eternity are all His works. Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God..."

The apostles interpreted the Amos passage as being fulfilled in their day. That is, Gentiles, coming to faith in Christ, with believing Jews, was indeed the fulfillment of God restoring the fallen taberncale of David.

Of course, if you cannot accept the temple is a metaphor for the church, this will not make sense to you. If you can, the wonderful picture is of Jesus being the One Who tabernacled among us. He died, and rose from the dead. We are raised with Him, the true taberncale.

But I'm just a simpleton.

Regards,
JD

[Guest]

"Amos 9:14-15, Deuteronomy 4:25-30, Deuteronomy 30:3-5, Ezekiel 20:34, Ezekiel 34:13, Ezekiel 36:24, Genesis 28:10-15, Isaiah 27:12-13, Isaiah 43:5-6, Jeremiah 23:3-6, Jeremiah 32:36-37, Jeremiah 32:37-41, Zechariah 8:7-8."

The entire Bible. I win.

JD