Partial Preterism & Full Preterism

[Guest]

But i am not sure it must be physical, and therefore future (this is another place i get stuck). You mentioned in a your last post JOHN 5, for why this event would be future.

This always makes me think of MAtt 27.

First, Jesus raised others from the dead as well, not just these. And it says many bodies of the saints were raised. It would make sense that these be people who recently died so when they appeared to many they could be recognized. Otherwise, how would they be able to convince someone who they were?

Since this passage says "many" and John 5 says "all" I see them differently. Wouldn't all mean all?

Another possibility is that this is the first reserrection mentioned in Revelation 20. These may have indeed been all the OT saints and have been considered Christs' firstfruits:

1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

It may be meaning Christ and those OT saints as firstfruits. This would make some sense because the OT saints are not those "who belong to Christ" since they didn't know who the Messiah was.

Anyway, that's just a thought.

Aside from that......i wonder if the resurrected body is something like rev 1 description of jesus.

Cuz i get the feel from Paul in his description of Resurrection body in Cor 15:35-45........that the physical body isnt necessarily the case.

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

But could you point me to some other verses that demonstrate that when the resurrection happens, it will be a physical resurrection. This also might make necessary a physical universe as well. IS this seen in REv. 21-22, or anywhere else??

Thanks again.
Peace and Love

jim d.

I think Jesus resurrection body is just as described in Luke 24:

Luk 24:37 But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit.
Luk 24:38 And he said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts?
Luk 24:39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."

It seems to me that if Paul meant something else then Paul was wrong.

I don't think Paul was wrong. Paul is contrasting the old and new body, both are flesh. The first is natural, as in "natural man" in Adam, sinful. The first Adam was from the dust, the last is from heaven, etc.

Notice Paul does not contrast flesh and spirit, rather the contrast is natural and spiritual. If you have ever referred to someone as spiritual that doesn't mean he's a ghost, it's a reference to his character. This is why Paul says " So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.". He's contrasting our flesh now, it's perishable, to our glorified body which will be imperishable. I don't see him comparing our body now with a "spirit body" but a "spiritual" body, as seems to be eluded to here:

Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

The above seems to be an example of our struggle to be "spiritual", not "non-physical".

Another important passage is this, I think you can add it to your question about other resurrection passages being about a physical resurrection:

Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
Rom 8:17 and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
Rom 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
Rom 8:19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

It seems like the whole of creation and it's subjection to decay is suppose to end at the "revealing of the sons of God". That sounds a lot like 2 Thes 1 "on that day He comes to be glorified in His people". Anyway, Paul says that the decaying of creation (which includes us) is going to end. It has not yet happened. In fact he says not only the creation but we ourselves are waiting for this, the redemption of our bodies, no longer being subject to decay.

Now, Let's look again at the context of 1 Cor 15:

1Co 15:37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain.
1Co 15:38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body.
1Co 15:39 For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish.
1Co 15:40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

I think the case Paul is making is that all kinds of living things differ in terms of glory and this will be manifest in the resurrection, Paul even says not all flesh is the same. But this is Paul speaking about the resurrection body (verses 35-38).

[Guest]

But could you point me to some other verses that demonstrate that when the resurrection happens, it will be a physical resurrection. This also might make necessary a physical universe as well. IS this seen in REv. 21-22, or anywhere else??

Here's some words of Jesus after His resurrection that seems relevant:

As they were saying this["The Lord has been raised indeed, and has appeared to Simon!"], Jesus himself stood among them. But they were startled and frightened, and supposed that they saw a spirit. And he said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do questionings rise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have."
Luke 24:36-39

So it seems that Jesus was raised with a physical body. However, that does not mean that it was a mortal body. Indeed, it wasn't.

"What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable." I Cor 15:42.

It seems that after His resurrection, Jesus walked appeared in a house with closed doors on at least two occasions. John 20:19,26

We shall be raised immortal, just as Jesus was. It will be a physical body, but a changed body.

Lo! I tell you a secret. We shall not all sleep [die], but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. I Corinthians 15:51,52

[Guest]

Hello Sean and Paidon. Thanks for the replies.

Let me state first that i agree with both of you that Jesus had a physical body after his death/resurrection. Maybe i was not so clear on that before.

What i am not so sure of is that A implies B.

Because jesus had a physical body here on earth after his resurrection, doesnt mean that we will have a physical body just like jesus did. If our resurrected lives are on this planet, i can see that being the case. But i am not so sure that is the case. I dont know if thats very clear (look at the other pret. argument, its going that way now, with new heavens and new earth).

It also seems hard for me to accept that in heaven, wherever or whatever that is, that jesus is walking around in a physical body. That implies that heaven is physical as we know what physicality is and what matter is. I just dont see that clear in the bible.

I know sean that u gave many reasons why. With romans, with the redemption of the body, i have associated that with Luke 21:28, he tells them their redemption draws near.......and i think you sean, (i think paidon holds to a little different view), that that was all referring to the judgment of 70 a.d. I know its not real clear, but thats a possible way that i look at it.

I hope that clears up my idea so far, on resurrection and why i am on the fence. The other post may be enlightening to my position as well, cuz i have sort of seen the Thess. passage tied into the 70a.d. passage, and the cor 15 passage.

YOu have asked about the death being abolished. ONe reason that i have been leaning toward full pret. is because of what psychomike stated in the other post regarding the Isa 65 passage that is associated with Rev. 21-22. Death is still happening in that new heavens and earth. So this seems to be a problem sean if you do hold to the judgment and parousia ending death, and then we have the new heavens and new earth. I will be looking at the other posts for your answer.



God bless you guys.

jimd.

[Guest]

Jim wrote:

It also seems hard for me to accept that in heaven, wherever or whatever that is, that jesus is walking around in a physical body

the only alternative would be that Jesus "molted" his physical body as He ascended into Heaven, as described in Acts 1. i have never considered this to be the case. but i am not exactly sure of what heaven is like right now. perhaps it is physical somehow-- are there not "many rooms" there?

TK

[Guest]

HEy TK...........My sentiments exactly, regarding the unknowability of heaven. Maybe its physical in some way, like u said, i like to think so.....but its not clear, nor is the "new heavens and earth" regarding our domain now.

I think this is important per this thread, because it seems to me that some of the fella's main sticking point is that the resurrection has not occurred yet, therefore its future.

I think that maybe our perception of where its supposed to be, (or theirs) could be wrong, and if so, than the resurrection could of happend in 70 a.d with the parousia, and could from that time on continue to be an ongoing process.

Thats why i have been pushing for clear teachings on "us" being resurrected physically to live on earth, and the earth to be shown going forever in which we would inhabit it.

Just thought i would clarify my thoughts once again, on why i am on the fence.

peace.

jimd

[Guest]

my former dispensationalist leanings have been challenged greatly in the past several months, but not my idea of the resurrection of believers ( or the "change" to a believer's body who happens to be alive when Christ returns). i simply cannot (will not?) believe that the resurrection took place in 70 AD (the kind of resurrection where believers receive glorified bodies- like that of Jesus). this clearly seems to happen at the true 2nd coming of Christ, which hasnt happened yet. if it has, i am in serious dog doo.

TK

[Guest]

When we say that Jesus was raised in a physical body, let's be clear what we mean by "physical." I'm not sure we are all using the word in the same way.

As I understand it, the resurrected body is in some sense the "same" body, but yet a "changed" body. It doesn't have the limitations of our present mortal bodies. After His resurrection, Jesus was able to appear in a room with closed doors. He was also able to ascend into the clouds without suffering from the rapid change of air pressure. So a person in his resurrection body can do things that our present mortal body cannot do.
On the other hand, Jesus ate food after His resurrection. So the resurrection body resembles this present mortal body in SOME aspects.
I believe the resurrected person will be recognizable. Some think that the resurrected person will appear about 30 years of age (the "ideal" age). This may be true. However, in his vision recorded in Revelation, John saw Jesus as an ageless person.

[Guest]

Hello Sean and Paidon. Thanks for the replies.

Let me state first that i agree with both of you that Jesus had a physical body after his death/resurrection. Maybe i was not so clear on that before.

What i am not so sure of is that A implies B.

Well, I don't think I can be of any more help then.

It seems that Paul in 1 Cor 15 states that the resurrection of the dead is a fact based on the fact that Christ was raised from the dead. You stated that Jesus was physical at the resurrection and that He ascended. How did he ascend to heaven when He's physical? How would I know? How did Paul get caught up to the third heaven? Was there air up there?

Anyway, since Paul says that Christs' physical resurrection is proof of the resurrection from the dead then why, may I ask, do you import a notion of non-physical resurrection?

Where do you get this idea that the resurrection is not physical?

I'll give you one more passage:

Phi 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Phi 3:21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

Our lowly body is going to change when He comes, it will be made like His. Tell me what's Jesus body like? Was He raised with a physical or with a spirit body?

While you might not agree, I hope you can at least see how I reach this conclusion. We have scriptural support for Jesus resurrection body being physical. And we have scriptural support for Jesus coming back to make our body like His. Not only that, Romans 8 says that the creation will no longer be subject to decay.

Could you please explain what Paul meant when he said our bodies will be like His if this happened in 70AD? What does "lowly" mean? What does "glorious" mean? And how in Romans 8 it is that the whole of creation is no longer subject to decay (since 70AD) if it is still subject to decay? And has Jesus put all his enemies under his feet? Didn't Jesus ask Saul why he was persecuting "me" meaning Jesus? Is "Jesus" still being persecuted today? If so then how can it be that all His enemies have been defeated? I'm not sure I get it.

You pointed to Isaiah 65, yet Jesus opened the understanding of the apostles so they could understand the scriptures. Why did that need to happen if we just need to take it literally? Maybe the OT is harder to understand than just taking it literal. Besides, How can a child be 100 years old literally? Maybe the meaning is hard to grasp. If it is hard to nail down, why take an obscure passage and impose it over clear pros passages like Romans 8? Wouldn't it make some sense that the curse be reversed and the earth restored?

Oh. where's Enoch?

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him

How does Enoch breath? He didn't die so he's still got lungs. Where is he now?

Just some ramblings of mine.

[Guest]

SEan, i absolutely see how you come to that conclusion, from philipians.....I too have had a difficulty with accepting that taking place at 70 a.d., and it still confuses me. Although i do see possible answers.

As far as where my idea comes about the resurrection not being physical.......i think one area is from the spiritual body in 1 cor 15, whether its overwhelming or not, i am not so sure. But like i have said before, i am not convinced the bible speaks of a physical resurrection for us in the future as well.

The reason that i import a possible non-physical resurrection is because i dont see where the bible teaches that we will have physical bodies in the afterlife. YOu make that assumption because jesus had one. LIke i said, A does not imply B from induction. I understand what you are saying, i used to hold to that line of reason as well. But that connection is necessitated as some think.

I know that may not satisfy you and others, as well as me completely, (dont forget 1jn also), but i am taking the whole context of this discussion of parousia, day of the lord, new heavens etc, and if the full pret. view is correct, then its clear the resurrection isnt as we suppose.

And to try to answer your other main objection from 1cor15 about death and the enemies being done away with............well like you, i dont take such verses in such a strict literal sense..........but i do think the enemies, (those being the jewish non-believers, that jesus talked about in matt 23) were put under his feet, in 70 a.d. and i think the death is referring to spiritual death for the believer.

I see the connection with the Parouisa and resurrection with the "end".

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Peter said........

But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

Luke said......

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

and.....

For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

BOTH verses referring to 70 A.D.

To me, the plain meaning of the text leads me to think what i am thinking.
Maybe i am guilty of being overly simplistic with scripture, but i hope that answers somewhat some of your questions for me, sean. I tried to get to most of them.

thanks brother.......its good to be forced to look at the good book, no?

jim d.

[Guest]

As far as where my idea comes about the resurrection not being physical.......i think one area is from the spiritual body in 1 cor 15, whether its overwhelming or not, i am not so sure. But like i have said before, i am not convinced the bible speaks of a physical resurrection for us in the future as well.

The reason that i import a possible non-physical resurrection is because i dont see where the bible teaches that we will have physical bodies in the afterlife. YOu make that assumption because jesus had one. LIke i said, A does not imply B from induction. I understand what you are saying, i used to hold to that line of reason as well. But that connection is necessitated as some think.

I'm still not sure what you think Paul is trying to prove about the resurrection in 1 Cor 15:12-16 ending with "For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen." Paul associates the faith of the Christian with the hope of the resurrection of the dead and points to Jesus as the "first", next are "those who are Christs' at His coming". When you say the bible doesn't speak about a future physical resurrection, then why does Paul stake the evidence of our hope in Christs' physical resurrection? As you say about other passages, I say about this one. "To me, the plain meaning of the text leads me to think what i am thinking."

Paul can't logically be arguing for a non-physical resurrection as our hope by pointing to Jesus' resurrection and then saying "well be next". Next to what?

If nothing else, can you explain why Paul said: (sorry if you already answered this, I didn't see it)

2 Tim 2:17 Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.

I think this is the strongest evidence against the version of full preterism you mention, because you say that this was present since John 5.

thanks brother.......its good to be forced to look at the good book, no?

jim d.

Yep, anytime brother.
Peace