In like manner!

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:38 pm

In response to your second point re: the parousia with a worldwide event is that i dont see that connection. I think the olivet discourse is re: Jerusalem in 70 a.d. I think the same with Rev. And the only other verse i can think of at this moment is 2 peter3, where even Ely (premill, i think) gave a good idea of the New Heavens and Earth as NOT a worldwide destruction, and possibly not even a destruction, (its late for me, so forgive me if i misquote, too tired to look up what everyone has stated).........

How can 2 Peter 3, 2 Thes 1.18, 1 Thes 1.14 Rev 20, John 5.28 not be worldwide events? Where is the judgement of ALL in 70AD, the raising of ALL, the Lake of Fire, glorified bodies of the saints? Do the preterists spiritulize everything?

Post by **_psychohmike** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:17 pm

STEVE7150 wrote:In response to your second point re: the parousia with a worldwide event is that i dont see that connection. I think the olivet discourse is re: Jerusalem in 70 a.d. I think the same with Rev. And the only other verse i can think of at this moment is 2 peter3, where even Ely (premill, i think) gave a good idea of the New Heavens and Earth as NOT a worldwide destruction, and possibly not even a destruction, (its late for me, so forgive me if i misquote, too tired to look up what everyone has stated).........

How can 2 Peter 3, 2 Thes 1.18, 1 Thes 1.14 Rev 20, John 5.28 not be worldwide events? Where is the judgement of ALL in 70AD, the raising of ALL, the Lake of Fire, glorified bodies of the saints? Do the preterists spiritulize everything?

Babylon was conquered by the Medes, plain and simple.

The burden against Babylon...Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them...

They come from a far country, From the end of heaven—The LORD and His weapons of indignation, To destroy the whole land...

Wail, for the day of the LORD is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty...

For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not give their light;
The sun will be darkened in its going forth,
And the moon will not cause its light to shine.

I will punish the world for its evil,

I will shake the heavens,
And the earth will move out of her place,
In the wrath of the LORD of hosts
And in the day of His fierce anger.

THIS WAS A REGIONAL EVENT...IN WHICH GOD USED ANOTHER COUNTRIES ARMY. AND HE USED COSMIC DESTRUCTION TO DESCRIBE THE EVENTS SURROUNDING THE FALL OF BABYLON. MATTER OF FACT HE EVEN SAID THAT HE WAS GOING TO PUNISH "THE WORLD."

PUNISH THE WORLD FOR A PEOPLES SIN...SOUNDS LIKE AD70 AND REVELATION TO ME!!!

It is symbolic...figurative...evocative...APOCALYPTIC even...

If you don't agree with this...PPPPLLLLLEEEEAAASSSEEE tell me how to interpret what went on here in Isaiah 13.

Thanks...Mike

Post by **_Jim from covina** » Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:09 pm

Helllo steve 7150

I didnt see your thess. passages re: the end of the world.
YOu make a bad generalization. Prets dont spiritualize everything. In fact, i believe they do the best job of interpreting scritpure correctly, according to what is called for re: context and jewish writings.
LIke i said, ELY is no pret. but doesnt believe 2pet3 is re: a worldwide destruction.

But all of these questions have been answered in previous emails.
I think Mike is making a good point that the majority of part. prets and well as full prets make concerning hermeneutics. That is that u and others are interpreting in a way that is NOT consistent with what a first century jew would of done, and not taking into consideration how they used language and what particular expressions were denoting. Your too western minded for your hermeneutics steve.........

Look at the point by psycho mike and explain that to all of us part. prets and full prets why Isa 13 used end of the world language for not that event.

jimd

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:47 am

LIke i said, ELY is no pret. but doesnt believe 2pet3 is re: a worldwide destruction.

But all of these questions have been answered in previous emails.
I think Mike is making a good point that the majority of part. prets and well as full prets make concerning hermeneutics. That is that u and others are interpreting in a way that is NOT consistent with what a first century jew would of done, and not taking into consideration how they used language and what particular expressions were denoting. Your too western minded for your hermeneutics steve.........

Ely, I have'nt seen your post re 2 Peter 3 so could you repeat your thoughts please.
Jim, Jesus opened the apostles minds regarding the scriptures (Luke 24) so it's not about how they viewed it.
And i have'nt seen the answers to , the judgement of mankind, the raising of the dead, the lake of fire and several other issues also.

Post by **_psychohmike** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:23 pm

STEVE7150 wrote:And i have'nt seen the answers to , the judgement of mankind, the raising of the dead, the lake of fire and several other issues also.

Steve...PLEASE...Read the passage copied below and respond to it. I keep posting this that you may see how one is supposed to understand them. You may not be seeing the answer...BUT THIS IS MY ANSWER.

Babylon was conquered by the Medes, plain and simple.

Selected passages from Isaiah 13. But please read all of it.

The burden against Babylon...Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them...

They come from a far country, From the end of heaven—The LORD and His weapons of indignation, To destroy the whole land...

Wail, for the day of the LORD is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty...

For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not give their light;
The sun will be darkened in its going forth,
And the moon will not cause its light to shine.

I will punish the world for its evil,

I will shake the heavens,
And the earth will move out of her place,
In the wrath of the LORD of hosts
And in the day of His fierce anger.

THIS WAS A REGIONAL EVENT...WHERE GOD USED ANOTHER COUNTRIES ARMY. AND HE USED COSMIC DESTRUCTION TO DESCRIBE THE EVENTS SURROUNDING THE FALL OF BABYLON. MATTER OF FACT HE EVEN SAID THAT HE WAS GOING TO PUNISH "THE WORLD."

PUNISH THE WORLD FOR A PEOPLES SIN...SOUNDS LIKE AD70 AND REVELATION TO ME!!!

Post by **_Ely** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:04 pm

STEVE7150 wrote:Ely, I have'nt seen your post re 2 Peter 3 so could you repeat your thoughts please.

Yeah sure, firstly, just to clarify something:

jim from covina wrote:LIke i said, ELY is no pret. but doesnt believe 2pet3 is re: a worldwide destruction.

Just to clarify, I believe that the DOTL will be a global event that will literally, directly and spectacularly affect every single person on the earth. it will not be a insignificant localised event which most of the world will barely notice (as per Jerusalem's sacking in AD70).

However, the bit I query is the "destruction" bit. Here's why:

Ely wrote:I don't believe that the "New Heavens and New Earth" motif is meant to indicate a complete destruction and replacement. In 2 Peter, the apostle says that the world that that existed in Noah's time "perished, being flooded with water" (3:6). He then compares this with what is going to happen to the heavens and earth at the DOTL (v.10). The flood did not completely anhialate the physical world and neither will the world be completely anhialated at the DOTL. The idea is more like a painful purifying, a renovation, a renewing. This is what Paul and the Thessalonians (and me) were expecting at the DOTL.

In short, the flood didn't completely destroy the globe and neither will Jesus' coming. Conversly, the flood did directly affect the entire globe and so will Jesus' coming (DOTL).