In the Last Days

[Guest]

Hi Dave,

Got it. I'm working on it. Haven't had much time in the last few days...

[Guest]

The answer is that’s it’s both. Jeremiah 31 was directly addressing those going into Babylonian exile and is promising a return from exile. However, Hebrews 8 also applies Jeremiah 31:31-34 to the New Covenant brought about by Jesus.


Hi Mort, I misstated my comment about "the day of the Lord" and 70AD. I meant to say preterists don't see any of those OT days being going past 70AD although some certainly happened earlier.
But certainly the predominate message in Jeremiah 31.31 is about "those days" and the New Covenant which came 600 years later. So is the phrase "those days" really different from the phrase "the last days" , no because they are just generic phrases referring to some undefined period of time.
Re the term "ages" i think Paul used the phrase "ages upon ages" and i've heard the term church age used many times by Steve Gregg and others to describe the time between the advents.
Now back to the last days, unless you are a full preterist you probably would agree Jesus said several times that he is coming back on the "last day" which would be at least 2,000 years into the future. In John 6 i think he said 4 times he is returning on the last day.
"And this is the will of Him who sent me ,that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life ,and i will raise him up at the LAST DAY." John 6.40
Now if there is a LAST day what would the period of time leading up to the last day be called?
My guess would be "the last days."

[Guest]

So is the phrase "those days" really different from the phrase "the last days" , no because they are just generic phrases referring to some undefined period of time.

I agree fully with this. The meaning of “last days” is really dependant on the context. But this just brings us back to the original question, which was what did Paul mean in 2 Timothy 3: 1-9.

Now if there is a LAST day what would the period of time leading up to the last day be called? My guess would be "the last days.

Sure. And the days leading up to the termination of the Old Covenant could also be called “the last days”. And the days leading up to the destruction of the temple could also be called “the last days”. And the days leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem (in 70AD or 132AD) could be called “the last days”. And the days leading up to the crucifixion of Jesus could be called “the last days”. And the days leading up to the first Gentiles becoming Christians could be called “the last days”. Etc., etc.

However, it seems that the way the NT writers typically used the term was in reference to their own time period.

How about answering my other questions?

[Guest]

Are you taking the value “thousand” literally? If so, do you also believe that God only owns the cattle on 1,000 hills and that He is only faithful to 1,000 generations? Does this mean the cattle on the 1001st hill aren’t His and He is not faithful to the 1001st generation?

2 Peter 3 ( including 3:8 which is quoting Psalm 90) is merely saying that God does things on His own timetable and His apparent delay in judgment is due to His mercy.

I'm only saying that the phrase "day" or "the day of" is used in various ways in scripture and need not be understood to be 24 hour days. I understand that the OT prophecies pointed to Jesus and some pointed to 70AD. But are we to also believe that in the NT which is about Christianity not judaism, that most of it is still focused on 70AD which is a mostly jewish event.
Paul is a Christian and like in his other letters he is speaking to another Christian so they are talking Christianity. Paul travels to the gentiles far from Jerusalem so in Paul's last few weeks on earth is he thinking about Christ and the new gentile churches and the christian brethren or is Paul thinking about the destruction of a jewish city and a temple which God no longer resides in?
In Paul's letters to the Thessalonians it seems he may have believed or at least hoped that Christ would return very soon so in Paul's mind when he uses the phrase "last days" i think he is connecting it to Christ's return. Even though Christ's return has'nt happened yet (unless you're a full preterist) the principals that Paul detailed are true until Christ does return IMO.

[Guest]

I think you're drawing a false dichotomy between Judaism and Christianity. Paul and the earliest Christians were all Jews. They saw Christianity as the fulfillment of Judaism, not as an alternative. For a time, the Christian Jews attended synagogue with non-Christian Jews until tensions and persecution split them apart.

Paul saw Gentiles coming to faith in Christ as the blossoming of what God had intended Judaism and the Old Covenant to produce. The Old Covenant wasn't a mistake or a failure, it was the seed for the New Covenant.

To Paul, Timothy, Peter, James, John and the other early Jewish Christians, the end of the Old Covenant was monumental because it signalled a tectonic shift of what it meant to be God's chosen people. The events of 70AD were unignorable signs of this shift. This was hugely important to Paul because the end of the Old Covenant would profoundly affect both Jews and Gentiles. This theme runs all through Paul's letters, particularly his letter to the Romans.

As far as 1 Thessalonians 4 & 5, Paul is addressing questions about the resurrection and how it will play out. I'm sure he did hope that the Lord would return soon, but he doesn't use the term "last days". Paul does refer to "the coming of the Lord" and "the day of the Lord" and refers to terrible destruction, which fits the historical usage of how those terms were understood as references to God's judgment.

[Guest]

And the days leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem (in 70AD or 132AD) could be called “the last days”.

What happened in 132 AD?

[Guest]

132 A.D. is the general date of the Bar Kochba rebellion (aka "the 2nd Jewish Rebellion") which was an unmitigated disaster and resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Jews, the complete destruction of Jerusalem and the banishment of the Jews from Judea.
Here's a link to a wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba's_revolt

[Guest]

To Paul, Timothy, Peter, James, John and the other early Jewish Christians, the end of the Old Covenant was monumental because it signalled a tectonic shift of what it meant to be God's chosen people. The events of 70AD were unignorable signs of this shift. This was hugely important to Paul because the end of the Old Covenant would profoundly affect both Jews and Gentiles. This theme runs all through Paul's letters, particularly his letter to the Romans.

I don't disagree with anything you specifically said except for the overemphasis that you place on 70AD for the Christian IMO. Yes to Paul and his contemporaries 70AD was very important but what you end up with is not only the OT pointing to 70AD but much of the NT. Is the bible about Christ or about 70AD? Christ talks repeatedly about "the last day" yet we are to believe "the last days" have nothing to do with the only real "LAST DAY" meaning Christ's return but have to do with something 2,000 years earlier then "the last day." A "last day" has last days leading up to it which at the risk of repeating myself must be the church age.
However if you are a full preterist then your position would make sense to you so if you are just acknowledge it and we will agree to disagree.

[Guest]

Hi Steve7150,

I think you may be misunderstanding my position. I don't believe that every instance where the words "last days" are used in the Old or New Testaments refers to the end of the Old Covenant.

I do believe though that, more often than not, the term is used to mean that in the New Testament epistles. I can't think of any instance, Old or New Testament where the term refers to events in 2006 A.D. or beyond.

You seem to keep fixating on 70 A.D. and I keep trying to bring you back to the idea that 70 A.D. is just a billboard for something much more significant, which is the end of the Old Covenant as a result of the establishment of the New Covenant. This is something that affects us all.

So, the scriptures point to Christ - the mediator of the New Covenant.

Christ talks repeatedly about "the last day" yet we are to believe "the last days" have nothing to do with the only real "LAST DAY" meaning Christ's return but have to do with something 2,000 years earlier then "the last day."

I've searched and I can't find any instances of Jesus talking about "the last days". Can you help me out here with some references?

... at the risk of repeating myself must be the church age.

What does that mean - "church age"? Where does that terminology come from?

However if you are a full preterist then your position would make sense to you so if you are just acknowledge it and we will agree to disagree.

Well, I am a preterist. Beyond that I'm uncomfortable with labels because they tend to lead to misunderstandings. I do believe that Jesus will return, once, and when He does the resurrection will occur, followed by the judgment and eternity with Him. Pretty simple really.

[Guest]

I can't think of any instance, Old or New Testament where the term refers to events in 2006 A.D. or beyond.

Hi, Mort...I was just kind of curious about how you can say that Peter was not talking about a time which includes 2006 and beyond in this scripture...I'm giving you the entire context so you can judge it more accurately...


2 Pet 3:3-12
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
(KJV)

I underlined "the promise" to show the connection here...that the descriptions of this period of time are speaking of the same "last days"... I bolded the descriptions to make it clear that this is yet future.

I can see where you can understand last days to mean the end of the O.C. in many scriptures...Not that I agree with any of them other than the reference in James possibly. But I cannot see it here, nor in that reference from Acts where Peter states that in the last days the Spirit would be poured out, and today is continued to be poured out on God's people.