"Until the TIMES of the Gentiles shall be fulfilled.&qu
Crusader, you never cease to amaze me in your lack of understanding.
If something is said to be the worst situation ever and there will never ever be a situation as bad as that again, and then fifteen years later a bad event happens and it is said by the same authority that it is the worst situation ever and and has no equal, what would you call those two statements which have been made by the same authority??
A hyperbole is a type of figurative language. It is often confused with a simile or a metaphor because it often compares two objects. The difference is a hyperbole is an exaggeration. For example: His feet were as big as a barge. It looks like a simile. It is comparing foot size to the size of a barge.
If something is said to be the worst situation ever and there will never ever be a situation as bad as that again, and then fifteen years later a bad event happens and it is said by the same authority that it is the worst situation ever and and has no equal, what would you call those two statements which have been made by the same authority??
A hyperbole is a type of figurative language. It is often confused with a simile or a metaphor because it often compares two objects. The difference is a hyperbole is an exaggeration. For example: His feet were as big as a barge. It looks like a simile. It is comparing foot size to the size of a barge.
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_Christopher
- Posts: 437
- Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:35 pm
- Location: Gladstone, Oregon
Allyn wrote:
Be careful how you use hyperbole Allyn, your comments may get taken "literally".
Or is it only the inspired authors of scripture that aren't allowed to use hyperbole? I have a hard time remembering that rule.
Never? You mean every time you read his comments you are in a never ending state of awe?Crusader, you never cease to amaze me in your lack of understanding.
Be careful how you use hyperbole Allyn, your comments may get taken "literally".
Or is it only the inspired authors of scripture that aren't allowed to use hyperbole? I have a hard time remembering that rule.
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"If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32
I wish I had thought of that first, Christopher. If I ever think of it again, it will be the first time I ever thought of it.
If I ever think of it again, it will be the first time I ever thought of it.
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Hi
Well really the things kind of a mute point because the popular majority view places Revelation being written around A.D. 96...long after Jerusalem fell in 70 A.D.
"
The church historian Eusebius Pamphili was born about 260 and died before 341. Bishop of Cæsarea in Palestine, he is known as the "Father of Church History." Eusebius confirms the authenticity of the testimony of Irenaeus. In chapter 18, Book 3 of his Church History, we read:
"It is said that in this persecution the apostle and evangelist John, who was still alive, was condemned to dwell on the island of Patmos in consequence of his testimony to the divine word. Irenaeus, in the fifth book of his work Against Heresies, where he discusses the number of the name of Antichrist which is given in the so-called Apocalypse of John, speaks as follows concerning him: a "If it were necessary for his name to be proclaimed openly at the present time, it would have been declared by him who saw the revelation. For it was seen not long ago, but almost in our own generation, at the end of the reign of Domitian."
Barnes notes adds...
It will be recollected that he [Irenaeus] was a disciple of Polycarp, bishop of Smyrna, who was himself the disciple of the apostle John. He had, therefore, every opportunity of obtaining correct information, and doubtless expresses the common sentiment of his age on the subject. His character is unexceptionable, and he had no inducement to bear any false or perverted testimony in the case. His testimony is plain and positive that the book was written near the close of the reign of Domitian, and the testimony should be regarded as decisive unless it can be set aside. His language in regard to the book of Revelation is: "It was seen no long time ago, but almost in our age, at the end of the reign of Domitian."—Lardner, ii. 181. Or, as the passage is translated by Prof. Stuart: "The Apocalypse was seen not long ago, but almost in our generation, near the end of Domitian’s reign." There can be no doubt, therefore, as to the meaning of the passage, or as to the time when Irenaeus believed the book to have been written. Domitian was put to death A.D. 96, and consequently, according to Irenaeus, the Apocalypse must have been written not far from this time.
Writing around AD 236, Hippolytis, in chapter one, verse 3 of On the Twelve Apostles, penned:
"John, again, in Asia, was banished by Domitian the king to the isle of Patmos, in which also he wrote his Gospel and saw the apocalyptic vision; and in Trajan's time he fell asleep at Ephesus, where his remains were sought for, but could not be found. "
About AD 270, Victorinus, In the Tenth Chapter of his Commentary on the Apocolypse of the Blessed John, wrote
..."when John said these things he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the labour of the mines by Caesar Domitian. There, therefore, he saw the Apocalypse; and when grown old, he thought that he should at length receive his quittance by suffering, Domitian being killed, all his judgments were discharged. And John being dismissed from the mines, thus subsequently delivered the same Apocalypse which he had received from God. "
Jerome was born about 340. He died at Bethlehem, 30 September, 420. Jerome wrote in the Ninth Chapter of Illustrious Men,
"In the fourteenth year then after Nero, Domitian, having raised a second persecution, he was banished to the island of Patmos, and wrote the Apocalypse, on which Justin Martyr and Irenaeus afterwards wrote commentaries. But Domitian having been put to death and his acts, on account of his excessive cruelty, having been annulled by the senate, he returned to Ephesus under Pertinax(1) and continuing there until the tithe of the emperor Trajan, founded and built churches throughout all Asia, and, worn out by old age, died in the sixty-eighth year after our Lord's passion and was buried near the same city. "
In Against Jovinianus, Book 1, Jerome also wrote:
"John is both an Apostle and an Evangelist, and a prophet. An Apostle, because he wrote to the Churches as a master; an Evangelist, because he composed a Gospel, a thing which no other of the Apostles, excepting Matthew, did; a prophet, for he saw in the island of Patmos, to which he had been banished by the Emperor Domitian as a martyr for the Lord, an Apocalypse containing the boundless mysteries of the future."
Sulpitius Severus was an ecclesiastical writer who was born in Aquitaine in 360. He died about 420-25. In chapter 31 of Book 2 of his Sacred History, we read:
"THEN, after an interval, Domitian, the son of Vespasian, persecuted the Christians. At this date, he banished John the Apostle and Evangelist to the island of Patmos. "
Crusader
"
The church historian Eusebius Pamphili was born about 260 and died before 341. Bishop of Cæsarea in Palestine, he is known as the "Father of Church History." Eusebius confirms the authenticity of the testimony of Irenaeus. In chapter 18, Book 3 of his Church History, we read:
"It is said that in this persecution the apostle and evangelist John, who was still alive, was condemned to dwell on the island of Patmos in consequence of his testimony to the divine word. Irenaeus, in the fifth book of his work Against Heresies, where he discusses the number of the name of Antichrist which is given in the so-called Apocalypse of John, speaks as follows concerning him: a "If it were necessary for his name to be proclaimed openly at the present time, it would have been declared by him who saw the revelation. For it was seen not long ago, but almost in our own generation, at the end of the reign of Domitian."
Barnes notes adds...
It will be recollected that he [Irenaeus] was a disciple of Polycarp, bishop of Smyrna, who was himself the disciple of the apostle John. He had, therefore, every opportunity of obtaining correct information, and doubtless expresses the common sentiment of his age on the subject. His character is unexceptionable, and he had no inducement to bear any false or perverted testimony in the case. His testimony is plain and positive that the book was written near the close of the reign of Domitian, and the testimony should be regarded as decisive unless it can be set aside. His language in regard to the book of Revelation is: "It was seen no long time ago, but almost in our age, at the end of the reign of Domitian."—Lardner, ii. 181. Or, as the passage is translated by Prof. Stuart: "The Apocalypse was seen not long ago, but almost in our generation, near the end of Domitian’s reign." There can be no doubt, therefore, as to the meaning of the passage, or as to the time when Irenaeus believed the book to have been written. Domitian was put to death A.D. 96, and consequently, according to Irenaeus, the Apocalypse must have been written not far from this time.
Writing around AD 236, Hippolytis, in chapter one, verse 3 of On the Twelve Apostles, penned:
"John, again, in Asia, was banished by Domitian the king to the isle of Patmos, in which also he wrote his Gospel and saw the apocalyptic vision; and in Trajan's time he fell asleep at Ephesus, where his remains were sought for, but could not be found. "
About AD 270, Victorinus, In the Tenth Chapter of his Commentary on the Apocolypse of the Blessed John, wrote
..."when John said these things he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the labour of the mines by Caesar Domitian. There, therefore, he saw the Apocalypse; and when grown old, he thought that he should at length receive his quittance by suffering, Domitian being killed, all his judgments were discharged. And John being dismissed from the mines, thus subsequently delivered the same Apocalypse which he had received from God. "
Jerome was born about 340. He died at Bethlehem, 30 September, 420. Jerome wrote in the Ninth Chapter of Illustrious Men,
"In the fourteenth year then after Nero, Domitian, having raised a second persecution, he was banished to the island of Patmos, and wrote the Apocalypse, on which Justin Martyr and Irenaeus afterwards wrote commentaries. But Domitian having been put to death and his acts, on account of his excessive cruelty, having been annulled by the senate, he returned to Ephesus under Pertinax(1) and continuing there until the tithe of the emperor Trajan, founded and built churches throughout all Asia, and, worn out by old age, died in the sixty-eighth year after our Lord's passion and was buried near the same city. "
In Against Jovinianus, Book 1, Jerome also wrote:
"John is both an Apostle and an Evangelist, and a prophet. An Apostle, because he wrote to the Churches as a master; an Evangelist, because he composed a Gospel, a thing which no other of the Apostles, excepting Matthew, did; a prophet, for he saw in the island of Patmos, to which he had been banished by the Emperor Domitian as a martyr for the Lord, an Apocalypse containing the boundless mysteries of the future."
Sulpitius Severus was an ecclesiastical writer who was born in Aquitaine in 360. He died about 420-25. In chapter 31 of Book 2 of his Sacred History, we read:
"THEN, after an interval, Domitian, the son of Vespasian, persecuted the Christians. At this date, he banished John the Apostle and Evangelist to the island of Patmos. "
Crusader
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Allyn, I hadn't heard from you in forever, you son of a gun. What a card you are. Doesn't Crusader just knock your socks off? What's the weather like in Nebraska? It's raining cats and dogs here.
Dispensational sociologist 2,000 years from now: "See, God allowed JD to speak to Allyn for the first time in eternity. Allyn was miraculously born out of the barrel of a Smith and Wesson. Allyn was also the first playing card spawned from a pistol. Apparently, this Crusader was known for hitting people's calves so hard, their Hanes fell off. Amazingly, poodles and tabbies fell out of the sky during their lifetime."
I'm so glad literalism keeps us from wacky interpretations. And I still want to know if the Bible mentions computer chips and nuclear war.
Regards,
JD
Dispensational sociologist 2,000 years from now: "See, God allowed JD to speak to Allyn for the first time in eternity. Allyn was miraculously born out of the barrel of a Smith and Wesson. Allyn was also the first playing card spawned from a pistol. Apparently, this Crusader was known for hitting people's calves so hard, their Hanes fell off. Amazingly, poodles and tabbies fell out of the sky during their lifetime."
I'm so glad literalism keeps us from wacky interpretations. And I still want to know if the Bible mentions computer chips and nuclear war.
Regards,
JD
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Re: Hi
Say what?Crusader wrote: It has absolutley no bearing on Matthew 24:21 where Jesus said that an unparalled time of tribulation will come upon the earth or ever will come upon the earth...they are two different circumstances....Where in Revelation does it say the judgements are eating ones children...????
Crusader
Mat 24:15 "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
Mat 24:16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
...
Mat 24:20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.
Mat 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.
Where does this apply to anyone except Judea? Jesus specifically mentioned Judea as the place where people should be fleeing from, not the whole earth.
So they have to say exactly the same thing before you see them as parallel?Crusader wrote: Where in Revelation does it say the judgements are eating ones children...????
Crusader
You know there are people who have lost their faith because the resurrection accounts do not say exactly the same thing...was it one angel or two? Was it before or after sunrise? How many women were there?
To say they have to be exact in every detail would force you to throw out the resurrection accounts as parallel. This is what you are doing with your quote above. Where in Daniel does it say there is a 2000+ year gap?
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By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)
I answered some of this already on page three of this discussion. While you jumped in late, Crusader should have already known this.Paidion wrote:Sean, didn't you omit an important part of the disciples question?Mat 24:1 Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 But he answered them, "You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down."
They asked when this would be, and Jesus gave the discourse ending with "this generation shall not pass until all this things are fulfilled"
Matt 24:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
I wonder why you left out the second part of their question? Perhaps it was not intentional. Perhaps you did it subconsciously. For it doesn't fit with a preterist interpretation of Matthew 24.
70 A.D. did not mark the end of any age. It didn't mark the end of the first covenant involving Hebrew law. For that age ended with John the Baptizer:
Luke 16:16 "The Law and the Prophets were until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been proclaimed...
70 A.D. didn't mark the end of the church age (if it indeed qualifies as an "age"), since clearly the church is still with us.
First, you have to consider context. Jesus predicted those very stones they were looking at to be thrown down. That is what they asked the question about. Because this is what prompted the question.
See the parallels in Mark 13 and Luke 21. These are parallel accounts yet the question about His coming is not there. Why not? You can't have two accounts about 70AD and one be about a future temple that was the very one they were looking at! How contextually correct is that? The time frame is set.
They had no idea about a second coming, how could they? They did not even understand that Jesus had to die and rise from the dead (Luke 18:33, Luke 24:7). They didn't have a concept about a "second coming" until Acts 1:11. So how could they ask about a second coming when they didn't know He was going away yet?
When you read the parallels, it is clear that the event is not the second coming but a judgement. A coming in judgement just as the OT prophets speak of. Go back to Isaiah and read it yourself,
Isa 19:1 An oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt; and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.
Did God literally ride a swift cloud? Did Jesus "come" before some of them standing there did not taste death? Matt 16:28
70AD marked the end of the old covenant and ushered in the promised curses pronounced in Deuteronomy 28. After 70 years of punishment, then 70x7 years of punishment, there was a 40 year period like the wilderness wandering were Christ was trying to lead people out of their slavery to sin by following Him. God no longer needs the temple because the OC typified in the stone tablets placed in the arc/tabernacle/temple were now fulfilled. No more OC, no more temple as Jesus said to the women at the well "...people will no longer worship in this mountain or in Jerusalem"
Without typing on forever, how about this.Paidion wrote: We may notice (if we are willing to consider it) that much or most of the rest of Matthew 24 consists of Jesus' answer concerning the question about His coming --- obviously His second coming.
Jesus' very first words remind them that many others will come, claiming to be the Messiah.
Matt 24:4,5 And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. "For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will mislead many."
Even as late as the 19th and 20th century, a good number of people claimed to be Christ returned or a reincarnation of Christ. The prophet of the Bahai faith was proclaimed as a reincarnation of Christ. I once read a book entitled "The Second Coming of Christ". It was all about the birth and life of Bahualla.
False predictions of the coming of Christ were frequent. The Adventists' prediction that He would come in 1844. The JWs' prediction of 1914. Herbert Armstong's prediction of 1975, etc., etc.
When Jesus didn't return at the predicted time, both the Adventists and the JWs
stated that He actually did come according to their prediction, but that He came in secret.
After describing many events leading to His coming, Jesus again warned against the false messiahs that would arise ---- and the "secret" comings.
Then if any one says to you, ‘Lo, here is the Messiah!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false Messiahs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
Lo, I have told you beforehand. So, if they say to you, ‘Lo, he is in the desert,’ do not go out; if they say, ‘Lo, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as the lighting comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of man.
The last sentence is the final crowning sentence! Jesus stated that just as the sun (the lighting) rises in the east and shines to the west, so will His coming be. It will be not be hidden. Jesus' coming will be obvious to everyone! As it is written: "Every eye shall see Him."
First, I don't agree it is about His second coming. After studying the language used in the OT, it is clear that this type of language is used commonly and non-literally in the prophets.
If you read Revelation and what Jesus said to the seven churches, He told them that if they didn't repent He would come to them and take away their lampstand. It's a coming, but not a second coming. It's a judgement coming. If you say it's not, then your still stuck with the problem of "His coming" not being the "second coming".
Again, if you follow the link I posted to DeeDee Warren's commentary on Matthew 24 and read it, you should find it interesting as it covers all these points in more detail.
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By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)
Hi
Sean I already answered you above regarding your evasive maneuver to Ezekiel 5: 9-10....and to restate what I already said would just be to much..you have chosen to not understand..its not the facts that are hindering you...its your choice...you have chosen to try to explain Matthew 24:21...when actually you should have just followed Steves lead and stuck with the hyperbole arguement...its lame but at least it ends the discussion by taking it off the table for discussion...for he flatly then attributes it to Jesus purposely exaggerating...you on the other hand are just digging yourself into a deeper hole which there is no way out of...and I know this because the same God that wrote Matthew 24:21 also wrote Ezekiel 5 9-10...and He doesn't contradict Himself...so if He was correct in Matthew 24:21 and was being literal it only follows that there cant be any other contradictions regarding that issue...and as I showed you there isnt...stivck with Steves plan...it closes the door for attack because you can say anytime you want that something is allegorical an "POOF" there is goes...its an awesome tactic...(weak but awesome)....of course you should know this Sean since you follow Steves teachings, so stick with the hyperbole thing...just forget that the desiciples had asked Jesus this important question...
"As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"
"As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"
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Please close this thread
Steve,
May I make a suggestion?
Please put us out of our misery and lock this thread. This thread has gone on long enough and it is just getting mean. I appreciate the patience of some of the participants, and the incredible amout of work that has been put into explaining scripture, but some seem to be in this to win an argument, not to further the kingdom, and I find it very painful to watch.
Mike
May I make a suggestion?
Please put us out of our misery and lock this thread. This thread has gone on long enough and it is just getting mean. I appreciate the patience of some of the participants, and the incredible amout of work that has been put into explaining scripture, but some seem to be in this to win an argument, not to further the kingdom, and I find it very painful to watch.
Mike
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